Having sourced handles I'd say your price is fair.
Rebody Door locks on Rebody
- Thread starter Dxbolton
- Start date
Hi Ian @Duncodin, thought I'd get this out here so that everyone can chip in...
I'm limited in the lock barrels that I can source and which would not only fit but also allow the push button to operate the Z3 locks. I have a barrel that I use on our Italian Job handles and a mechanism for implementing it, even with the big spring. I know that I can make it fit although the depth of the lock might be greater than it currently is. That may or may not be an issue, I'll know more when I get the prototypes.
Having a prevent push feature on the handles does have its attractions, as you said, but it does mean that letting passengers in (assuming you lock their handle too) becomes a bit of a faff. We're used to faffing as kit builders but still...
I think that phase one will be a lockless solution, probably with the squarer push button (back to the drawing board for me...) and I'll also look into the possibility of adding a lock (which will add around £30 to each handle fitted with a lock) at the same time.
I'm limited in the lock barrels that I can source and which would not only fit but also allow the push button to operate the Z3 locks. I have a barrel that I use on our Italian Job handles and a mechanism for implementing it, even with the big spring. I know that I can make it fit although the depth of the lock might be greater than it currently is. That may or may not be an issue, I'll know more when I get the prototypes.
Having a prevent push feature on the handles does have its attractions, as you said, but it does mean that letting passengers in (assuming you lock their handle too) becomes a bit of a faff. We're used to faffing as kit builders but still...
I think that phase one will be a lockless solution, probably with the squarer push button (back to the drawing board for me...) and I'll also look into the possibility of adding a lock (which will add around £30 to each handle fitted with a lock) at the same time.
Yes it was me. I decided against it as it would make things a lot more complicated to actually make everything work less well and be less secure. It could also be an issue when it comes to insurance.
I have just fitted the existing handle kit from Russell. It is simple, works OK and does the job. Mine has a locking barrel in the driver's door which pulls the lock release on the Z3 door lock via a cable. Obviously it doesn't lock the car via this, so is only an emergency unlock in reality.
Prices seem fair if they work with the z3 mechanism
@argy Just for info, in case it's relevant.
Where I have my handles is almost directly over the original z3 handles.
There's not much room there behind the GRP skin.
I've had to chop out part of the old z3 handle and recess an area of the steel to make room for the new handle.
If you were planning on making your kit work in the same place - kinda near where the original 507 has its handles - then you might need to take that into consideration.
I think you said Chris at tribute was sending you a door skin. So you'll see what I mean.
Where I have my handles is almost directly over the original z3 handles.
There's not much room there behind the GRP skin.
I've had to chop out part of the old z3 handle and recess an area of the steel to make room for the new handle.
If you were planning on making your kit work in the same place - kinda near where the original 507 has its handles - then you might need to take that into consideration.
I think you said Chris at tribute was sending you a door skin. So you'll see what I mean.
I've ordered the first set of handles which I will evaluate but probably not go into production with. They will prove (or disproove) much of the functionality.
I've taken on board the comments about the shape of the button and the desire to prevent the button from being pressed and yanked when the door is locked. The photo below shows the shape of the handle and I've uploaded another video here.
I've designed a handle insert which can be turned through 90 degrees by inserting your Z3 key (or a screwdriver). The point being that it is not a key operated lock. It should prevent someone inadvertently pressing the button and pulling the lever and, because it can be operated with the Z3 key then that should be less faff.
The video focuses on the push button end and shows the insert being rotated anticlockwise to 'lock' the handle and back again. It then zooms in on the insert in the locked position showing that it just hits the base after travelling 1.5mm of which only 0.5mm will actually move the handle, it doesn't come out of its enclosure.
On the outer base of the handle is a 1mm bump and a lever which rolls over it when the insert is turned. This is intended to keep the insert in the desired position. It's an extra component and so will add to the cost but only around a tenner or so.
Any questions / comments please et me know, this is the best time to provide feedback
Cheers
Russell
I've taken on board the comments about the shape of the button and the desire to prevent the button from being pressed and yanked when the door is locked. The photo below shows the shape of the handle and I've uploaded another video here.
I've designed a handle insert which can be turned through 90 degrees by inserting your Z3 key (or a screwdriver). The point being that it is not a key operated lock. It should prevent someone inadvertently pressing the button and pulling the lever and, because it can be operated with the Z3 key then that should be less faff.
The video focuses on the push button end and shows the insert being rotated anticlockwise to 'lock' the handle and back again. It then zooms in on the insert in the locked position showing that it just hits the base after travelling 1.5mm of which only 0.5mm will actually move the handle, it doesn't come out of its enclosure.
On the outer base of the handle is a 1mm bump and a lever which rolls over it when the insert is turned. This is intended to keep the insert in the desired position. It's an extra component and so will add to the cost but only around a tenner or so.
Any questions / comments please et me know, this is the best time to provide feedback
Cheers
Russell
I really like the idea of using the z3 key to disable the button. On the real 507 that's how it works.
But not sure how many would want it. As you said, it is a faff having to walk round the car to disable the passenger side too.
I can imagine some owners would just like the vusual. Walking out of the cafe and opening their door with the key rather than light-flash central locking. I'd unlock and open the pasenger side too to open the door for the missus. Others might leave their passenger side locked from the outside where the driver gets in and reaches across the car to open the passenger door from the inside. Just like we used to do in the old days.
I'm not actually sure how the real 507 disables the button on the passenger side. No key on the passenger side.
If the key holes don't add too much to the cost I think it would be OK giving owners the option of how they want to use them.
But not sure how many would want it. As you said, it is a faff having to walk round the car to disable the passenger side too.
I can imagine some owners would just like the vusual. Walking out of the cafe and opening their door with the key rather than light-flash central locking. I'd unlock and open the pasenger side too to open the door for the missus. Others might leave their passenger side locked from the outside where the driver gets in and reaches across the car to open the passenger door from the inside. Just like we used to do in the old days.
I'm not actually sure how the real 507 disables the button on the passenger side. No key on the passenger side.
If the key holes don't add too much to the cost I think it would be OK giving owners the option of how they want to use them.
Reach across to pull the little knob up then the passenger would use the button/handle to pull the door open. That's probably how it worked on the 507 too. But with the z3 with 507 style lever handle that wouldn't work if the lever/handle was in the locked/flush state. The pull up knob isn't connected to the outside handle so the passenger would have nothing to hold/pull. The driver would have to open and push the door open from the inside to let the passenger in.
There are lots of rabbit holes to go down here but I think the best bet is to have a two piece push button as described above which does actually prevent the button from being pressed and an alternative one piece push button just like the original. At the time of ordering people would be able to choose any combination of locking / non locking buttons for either or none of the sides and to stump up for whatever best suits individual needs... Same as we do with the Italian Jobs.
First things first, I need to evaluate how well the initial handle behaves. As a prototype I built in some features to allow different ways of actuating the push button. I think the original design had some limitations which were no doubt valid at the time but which probably aren't now. For example, the cam which operates the trigger bolt and the bolt itself are made of a different (harder wearing) material than the rest of the handle. As our handles are made of stainless steel throughout, which is also more hard wearing than typical handle material, we can eliminate the need for that 2 part solution.
The 2 part solution imposed other constraints on the design including, as Duncodin pointed out, the three spring requirement which was presumably done to balance the return of the push button after uneven downward pressure on the actuating lever. Over time the wear of these impositions causes the mechanism to become a bit floppy and for the handle to not work as well as intended, which isn't bad for such an old and well used component.
I'm not sure yet whether my favoured approach will cut the mustard, hence the prototype and the back up option. If the favoured approach works then I should be able to move straight on to the rectangular style of knob. If the favoured approach doesn't work but Plan B does then this would mean that the rectangular version would be unlikely to happen. That's because the physical properties of the rounded version allow for Plan B whereas the rectangular version doesn't.
I'll continue to post updates here.
Cheers
Russell
First things first, I need to evaluate how well the initial handle behaves. As a prototype I built in some features to allow different ways of actuating the push button. I think the original design had some limitations which were no doubt valid at the time but which probably aren't now. For example, the cam which operates the trigger bolt and the bolt itself are made of a different (harder wearing) material than the rest of the handle. As our handles are made of stainless steel throughout, which is also more hard wearing than typical handle material, we can eliminate the need for that 2 part solution.
The 2 part solution imposed other constraints on the design including, as Duncodin pointed out, the three spring requirement which was presumably done to balance the return of the push button after uneven downward pressure on the actuating lever. Over time the wear of these impositions causes the mechanism to become a bit floppy and for the handle to not work as well as intended, which isn't bad for such an old and well used component.
I'm not sure yet whether my favoured approach will cut the mustard, hence the prototype and the back up option. If the favoured approach works then I should be able to move straight on to the rectangular style of knob. If the favoured approach doesn't work but Plan B does then this would mean that the rectangular version would be unlikely to happen. That's because the physical properties of the rounded version allow for Plan B whereas the rectangular version doesn't.
I'll continue to post updates here.
Cheers
Russell
OK, it's been a couple of weeks...
Samples arrived this afternoon and were assembled (after a bit of tolerance management with a file) and overall I am very happy with the prototype. They have proven that the concept is good and also helps me to understand where more work needs to be done.
Some time in the next 3 weeks I will order a small production run of the new version. The video here shows the sample that arrived this afternoon. There are a couple of images which show the sample alongside the original and the second sample in a deconstructed state.
Below that I'll talk about the next batch and what I've decided to change and why...
The protoyypes tell me that everything can be made to fit and that the operation of the button and its interactions with the handle is sound. After the last round of discussions I decided to go wholesale on the rectangular version of the button. I also developed my thoughts on how to allow the Z3 key (or a screw driver) to be used to prevent inadvertent pushing of the button.
Having designed the model of the original 507 / 700 handle and looked at the desired positioning of the handle on the door I concluded that it just wouldn't work. There is no practical way to move the lever on the door latch by pressing a button when the lever wants to come towards the outside of the door, i.e. in the opposite direction. BMW get around it on the Z3 by having a handle which when pulled up pivots around a point and operates a lever which then pulls the door latch lever. That'll be quite a different action than what the 507 handle was designed to do.
The desired position of the 507 handle (on or just above the swage line) places it at the same position as the door lock lever which is rather inconvenient for the original 507 / 700 handle but rather nicely convenient for the new version (below). The new version borrows some of the techniques from the Grassbank Classic Italian style handle.
To operate the Italian Job I developed a cable guide which effectively replaces a pulley which is often used to invert the action of the push button (a push) into the pull action which the lever needs. I had to create a new cable guide for this handle and was able to integrate the push lever directly into the handle as you can see in the images.
The cable guide is fixed to the inside of the end of the door panel with an M6 bolt and a nyloc. I have a jig which precicely locates it where it needs to be. With the Italian handles I also produced a mounting template for the handle and I'll do the same for these. As with the Italian handles a loop of stainless steel cable will be crimped onto the Z3 latch lever, that's the tricky bit. The cable will be threaded through the cable guide which will present it to the lever of the 507 handle. I have created a threaded end and a hole through the thread. A nyloc threaded on to this will allow for adjustment before fully clamping the cable in place. This should be a lot easier to install than our Italian handles which are tucked up high on the top of the door.
It will be necessary to cut a bit of an opening in the Z3 door panel to gain access to the 507 handle for fixing purposes. The door skin fibreglass is around 5mm thick. The front of the handle has an M6 thread onto which a washer and a nyloc can be fitted. At the rear there is an M6 thread and something like an M6 x 8mm bolt (with a bit of loctite should secure that end. I think I will also offer a spreader which you can bond onto the inside of the fibreglass and onto which the M6 bolt can fasten, just to save the fibreglass from too much strees. Having said that 5mm is a lot of fibreglass.
The Z3 lever has around 25mm of travel and the latch is released around half way. If you have read my understanding of the dealock issue in our reference library you will understand why we advocate a cable solution rather than a lever approach which usually includes driving the original Z3 door handle...
As a cyclist I have a high level of confidence in the reliability of cables when it comes to critically important issues such as stopping my mass and that of my bike when travelling down hill at speed. They also work quite well on Z3 handbrakes... The real benefit in this case is that the lever has 27mm of travel so you can build in more than a couple of millimeters of slack which will ensure that the Z3 lever is back where it needs to be without impacting the operation of the system.
One key point relates to the half cocked position of the handle. The spring which is built in to the Z3 lock system is quite strong. I am concerned that when the handle comes out to its half way position it might get pulled closed again by that spring. Not knowing what BMW did on the inside of their original 507 locks I can say how much force was applied in the half cocked position. The original solution allows for the handle to be put in the half cocked position and then pushed close again. I don't think we will be able to do that so I propose that when the handle get to the half cocked position it becomes latched there and will not be able to be pushed closed. Instead you will have to pull the handle fully open to release the latch and so allow the handle to be returned under the force of the Z3 lock lever spring.
Finally (apart from the cosmetics which need a bit of a revision to get the shape of the top of the handle closer to the original) I have developed what I think is an elegant and will be a cost effective mechanism for preventing the push button from being pressed. You might also notice that the push button side of the handle is much slimmer. That's because all the push button is doing is moving the handle into the half cocked position which also starts the action on moving the lever, after that the handle does the rest of the work by continuing to pull the cable through the cable guide and so drawing the lever outward and downward.
I'm due a couple of weeks holiday starting on Monday so I'll catch up with you towards the end of the month, by which time I hope to have those production models on order...
Samples arrived this afternoon and were assembled (after a bit of tolerance management with a file) and overall I am very happy with the prototype. They have proven that the concept is good and also helps me to understand where more work needs to be done.
Some time in the next 3 weeks I will order a small production run of the new version. The video here shows the sample that arrived this afternoon. There are a couple of images which show the sample alongside the original and the second sample in a deconstructed state.
Below that I'll talk about the next batch and what I've decided to change and why...
The protoyypes tell me that everything can be made to fit and that the operation of the button and its interactions with the handle is sound. After the last round of discussions I decided to go wholesale on the rectangular version of the button. I also developed my thoughts on how to allow the Z3 key (or a screw driver) to be used to prevent inadvertent pushing of the button.
Having designed the model of the original 507 / 700 handle and looked at the desired positioning of the handle on the door I concluded that it just wouldn't work. There is no practical way to move the lever on the door latch by pressing a button when the lever wants to come towards the outside of the door, i.e. in the opposite direction. BMW get around it on the Z3 by having a handle which when pulled up pivots around a point and operates a lever which then pulls the door latch lever. That'll be quite a different action than what the 507 handle was designed to do.
The desired position of the 507 handle (on or just above the swage line) places it at the same position as the door lock lever which is rather inconvenient for the original 507 / 700 handle but rather nicely convenient for the new version (below). The new version borrows some of the techniques from the Grassbank Classic Italian style handle.
To operate the Italian Job I developed a cable guide which effectively replaces a pulley which is often used to invert the action of the push button (a push) into the pull action which the lever needs. I had to create a new cable guide for this handle and was able to integrate the push lever directly into the handle as you can see in the images.
The cable guide is fixed to the inside of the end of the door panel with an M6 bolt and a nyloc. I have a jig which precicely locates it where it needs to be. With the Italian handles I also produced a mounting template for the handle and I'll do the same for these. As with the Italian handles a loop of stainless steel cable will be crimped onto the Z3 latch lever, that's the tricky bit. The cable will be threaded through the cable guide which will present it to the lever of the 507 handle. I have created a threaded end and a hole through the thread. A nyloc threaded on to this will allow for adjustment before fully clamping the cable in place. This should be a lot easier to install than our Italian handles which are tucked up high on the top of the door.
It will be necessary to cut a bit of an opening in the Z3 door panel to gain access to the 507 handle for fixing purposes. The door skin fibreglass is around 5mm thick. The front of the handle has an M6 thread onto which a washer and a nyloc can be fitted. At the rear there is an M6 thread and something like an M6 x 8mm bolt (with a bit of loctite should secure that end. I think I will also offer a spreader which you can bond onto the inside of the fibreglass and onto which the M6 bolt can fasten, just to save the fibreglass from too much strees. Having said that 5mm is a lot of fibreglass.
The Z3 lever has around 25mm of travel and the latch is released around half way. If you have read my understanding of the dealock issue in our reference library you will understand why we advocate a cable solution rather than a lever approach which usually includes driving the original Z3 door handle...
As a cyclist I have a high level of confidence in the reliability of cables when it comes to critically important issues such as stopping my mass and that of my bike when travelling down hill at speed. They also work quite well on Z3 handbrakes... The real benefit in this case is that the lever has 27mm of travel so you can build in more than a couple of millimeters of slack which will ensure that the Z3 lever is back where it needs to be without impacting the operation of the system.
One key point relates to the half cocked position of the handle. The spring which is built in to the Z3 lock system is quite strong. I am concerned that when the handle comes out to its half way position it might get pulled closed again by that spring. Not knowing what BMW did on the inside of their original 507 locks I can say how much force was applied in the half cocked position. The original solution allows for the handle to be put in the half cocked position and then pushed close again. I don't think we will be able to do that so I propose that when the handle get to the half cocked position it becomes latched there and will not be able to be pushed closed. Instead you will have to pull the handle fully open to release the latch and so allow the handle to be returned under the force of the Z3 lock lever spring.
Finally (apart from the cosmetics which need a bit of a revision to get the shape of the top of the handle closer to the original) I have developed what I think is an elegant and will be a cost effective mechanism for preventing the push button from being pressed. You might also notice that the push button side of the handle is much slimmer. That's because all the push button is doing is moving the handle into the half cocked position which also starts the action on moving the lever, after that the handle does the rest of the work by continuing to pull the cable through the cable guide and so drawing the lever outward and downward.
I'm due a couple of weeks holiday starting on Monday so I'll catch up with you towards the end of the month, by which time I hope to have those production models on order...
Pretty much on the swage line. From photos that I've seen it will be indistinguishably close to where the original was. I put that down to good luck rather than design.
I think I saw a very early picture with the handle right on the swage line. All others I've seen and it's about an inch above
Deleted duplicate post
I've been working on the basis that the centre of the handle is, if I remember correctly, 325mm from the top of the door.
I can modify the cable guide to align with the centre of the handle, where ever it ends up. Now is definitely the best time to decide where that is so everyone's input is welcome
I'll fish out a model of where the handle is relative to the 325mm measurement. Can anyone provide similar photos of where it should be please?
I can modify the cable guide to align with the centre of the handle, where ever it ends up. Now is definitely the best time to decide where that is so everyone's input is welcome
I'll fish out a model of where the handle is relative to the 325mm measurement. Can anyone provide similar photos of where it should be please?
My above picture in my previous post is a real 507.
To get that look on a tribute door, which is a totally different size and shape , you'd need to be around 135mm.
Mine's nearer 130 but I'd happily move it down a little. I think it's wonky anyway.
To get that look on a tribute door, which is a totally different size and shape , you'd need to be around 135mm.
Mine's nearer 130 but I'd happily move it down a little. I think it's wonky anyway.
My 235mm was the surface distance not the vertical height.
Let me dig out that model tomorrow which shows what I'm aiming for.
If you look on the inside you will see the brass coloured Z3 lever. The top of that is about an inch or less above the centre of the handle. There is a kind of notch in the top, outside corner that the cable will hook on to
Let me dig out that model tomorrow which shows what I'm aiming for.
If you look on the inside you will see the brass coloured Z3 lever. The top of that is about an inch or less above the centre of the handle. There is a kind of notch in the top, outside corner that the cable will hook on to