I have to agree BB, as all Vee engines smooth as silk. A friend rolled up at ours the other week with his new car, a Lexus and I thought they were still on straight 6's. Uh,Uh Vee six, not so nice in that car.
ok ,had enough now..need help!..RESOLVED!
- Thread starter joey
- Start date
I don't think the coolant system is weak as such when in tip top nick , but as proved here you cannot take short cuts with it , do bodge repairs or install anything but OEM or better.
Simply because an overheat is catastrophic for the M44 engine.
No short cuts or workarounds will be done when doing this work.
Thanks for the support all and I will hopefully be posting some good news early week..
Simply because an overheat is catastrophic for the M44 engine.
No short cuts or workarounds will be done when doing this work.
Thanks for the support all and I will hopefully be posting some good news early week..
Sorry just read this but easy way to test for head gasket failure is this
Engine cold, take expansion tank cap off to release any residual pressure then refit.
Start and idle engine for 60 seconds then switch off.
Take expansion tank cap off and see if there is any build up of pressure, if there is, it is likely that combustion pressure via a head gasket failure is pressurising the cooling system.
The system should only pressurise when it is getting hot, not on a cold engine after 60 seconds.
Also the hoses will get very taught when hot, normally they are still squashy to some extent, Oh and dirty brown water can also be attributed to it
Always worked, and proved it, for me in the past.
Engine cold, take expansion tank cap off to release any residual pressure then refit.
Start and idle engine for 60 seconds then switch off.
Take expansion tank cap off and see if there is any build up of pressure, if there is, it is likely that combustion pressure via a head gasket failure is pressurising the cooling system.
The system should only pressurise when it is getting hot, not on a cold engine after 60 seconds.
Also the hoses will get very taught when hot, normally they are still squashy to some extent, Oh and dirty brown water can also be attributed to it
Always worked, and proved it, for me in the past.
@joey will you please PM me regarding the fan delete mod as I am keen on this. I have a 2.2 and it has an airconditioner already. It is cool here most of the time but in summer we can get several weeks where it is hot. I have had the car only in autumn and winter and have never hear the fan engage. thanks.
Joey - just had a thought. Do you think the 1st failure was the head gasket? This would have pressurised the cooling system enough to split the heater hose at the point where it had been (badly) repaired before, this lost a load of coolant resulting in the original overheat.
It just may have been the head gasket all along...
It just may have been the head gasket all along...
definitely Mint...its really the only logical conclusion..
It was the compression test results that had us confused for a bit , in retrospect it was obvious the minute the original radiator blew and even more obvious when the 2nd one did.
Having read an article by pelican parts last night it has followed the classic pattern of a BMW e36 compact head gasket failure.
1) overheat due to cooling system failure.
2) drives OK for a hundred or so miles
3) starts blowing bits of the coolant system off.
4 ) we didn't get this far but eventually we would have seen oil in the coolant or vice versa
As it's my first head gasket failure the diagnosis took a while but I think if it ever happens again I will know what to look for..
It was the compression test results that had us confused for a bit , in retrospect it was obvious the minute the original radiator blew and even more obvious when the 2nd one did.
Having read an article by pelican parts last night it has followed the classic pattern of a BMW e36 compact head gasket failure.
1) overheat due to cooling system failure.
2) drives OK for a hundred or so miles
3) starts blowing bits of the coolant system off.
4 ) we didn't get this far but eventually we would have seen oil in the coolant or vice versa
As it's my first head gasket failure the diagnosis took a while but I think if it ever happens again I will know what to look for..
all back together...
wish it was good news.
turns over, splutters,runs on a couple of cylinders an then dies...
am sure its something stupid like a sensor wrongly connected or damaged in removal and re-fitting,
can't imagine it would be the timing, we had the right tools and followed the manual to the letter,
TDC ,flywheel locked, cams clamped and timing chain locked into position with cable tied so it wouldn't jump a tooth..timing arrows aligned on the cam chain wheels when we re-assmebled,all good..? what can we have forgotten?
have a mechanic coming monday I hope to run some diagnostics and have a listen and look..
i'm hoping its a simple mistake and not something more troublesome.
stumped
knackered
honestly a bit demoralised..and soon have to go back to work, have no car and its looking like I will have to lay out a few grand for a new one.
not a happy bunny.
and if I could find the mechanic who lazily repaired the heater matrix hose with a plastic connector I would at this point invite him for a "quiet word" outside.
if not for that the way my car was running she would have been good for a another 150k with regular servicing and the "normal Z stuff".
any thoughts on what we could have missed?
cheers
Joe
wish it was good news.
turns over, splutters,runs on a couple of cylinders an then dies...
am sure its something stupid like a sensor wrongly connected or damaged in removal and re-fitting,
can't imagine it would be the timing, we had the right tools and followed the manual to the letter,
TDC ,flywheel locked, cams clamped and timing chain locked into position with cable tied so it wouldn't jump a tooth..timing arrows aligned on the cam chain wheels when we re-assmebled,all good..? what can we have forgotten?
have a mechanic coming monday I hope to run some diagnostics and have a listen and look..
i'm hoping its a simple mistake and not something more troublesome.
stumped
knackered
honestly a bit demoralised..and soon have to go back to work, have no car and its looking like I will have to lay out a few grand for a new one.
not a happy bunny.
and if I could find the mechanic who lazily repaired the heater matrix hose with a plastic connector I would at this point invite him for a "quiet word" outside.
if not for that the way my car was running she would have been good for a another 150k with regular servicing and the "normal Z stuff".
any thoughts on what we could have missed?
cheers
Joe
the tough stuff is done Joey, as you say, this is something simple like a connection or earth, keep us posted and please god you will have a good run of things from here on, best of luck buddy ;-)
Thanks David,
I do hope its simple..
I suspect cam shaft position sensor...plugs not firing and really rough running /stalling fits..
unfortunately it also fits timing issues..
fingers crossed for an easy solution this time..!
I do hope its simple..
I suspect cam shaft position sensor...plugs not firing and really rough running /stalling fits..
unfortunately it also fits timing issues..
fingers crossed for an easy solution this time..!
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2011
- Points
- 175
Hey Joey
Best of luck getting it sorted, any news?
Best of luck getting it sorted, any news?
Back together Andy but running like a bag of spanners..
Got a guy coming in the morning to run some diagnostics and check our work.
We think we are almost there and it's something silly that will be obvious to an experienced mechanic
Can't be the timing the tools worked a charm. .
I will post the minute she fires up properly rest assured!
Best
Joe
Got a guy coming in the morning to run some diagnostics and check our work.
We think we are almost there and it's something silly that will be obvious to an experienced mechanic
Can't be the timing the tools worked a charm. .
I will post the minute she fires up properly rest assured!
Best
Joe
Was thinking of your problem and just wondered if when you were at TDC that you were on the proper stroke. If not your timing would be off. Just a thought, hope I'm wrong. JIM
Hi All..am happy to report the car is fixed and running like a dream......
it has been a journey and a half from diagnosing the problem to fixing it...
the work done in the last month
new radiator, hoses and fan delete mod, modified air-box goes in tomorrow,new engine temp sensor as well,and of course the head gasket which was no mean feat as on this 17 yr old car all of the bolts were either inaccessible or seized meaning just getting the cylinder head off was a long and fiddly task as was replacing it.
those exhaust manifold bolts were a nightmare!
have also fixed the rocking seats re-proofed and re-dyed the hood and gone round and touched in all of the stone chips..
previously replaced ,water pump and thermostat.
head was skimmed and tested all good, interestingly the ends had .42 off and the middle .2 clearly indicating the head had warped in the overheat quite significantly.
in order to skim the head we had to remove the camshafts valves,hydraulic lifters and all of the assorted stuff in the cylinder head.
all the valves were lapped in before re-assembly to ensure good seal and compression.
the cylinder head was then bolted down to torque with the correct sequence as per the haynes manual, Gasket was a 1.74 victor Reinz and the head bolts Elring all from ECP, we also replaced the rocker cover gasket whilst at it, I decided not to go with the thicker head gasket having established on the 318 forum that as much as .45 is ok without using the 2.03 thickness Gasket.
on our first fire up she ran like a bag of spanners! we had used the camshaft locking tool and the flywheel pin as well as marking the camshaft timing wheels so we couldn't work out what was wrong, I suspected timing and was right, and here is why....
for every 12 thou milled of a head the camshaft alignment will be out by one degree, as we had milled of .42 at the ends this meant the timing was roughly 3 degrees out as the distance between the crankshaft and camshaft timing wheels was shorter.
as we have a timing chain rather than a belt we cant move the chain as one tooth represent 12 degrees.
the only option is to adjust the sprocket wheels by the desired amount in the right direction, as the mill advances the timing by 3 degrees you have to compensate by retarding by that amount on the M44 they are luckily adjustable.
as of early this afternoon success! ..running beautifully with smoother idle and a more even acceleration curve, no leaks and despite removal of the viscous fan the lower temp fan switch in the rad means its all as it should be.
A very special thanks goes out to Barry Gadd, not just for his help but in educating a mechanical newbie to the point where I would confidently tackle this again on my own with the odd bit of help here and there..I now feel able to handle all future servicing and overhauls on the car..not bad for a 3 week crash course!..
spurs fan (andy) thanks for not just lending me the timing tool but actually dropping round, also above and beyond the call of duty.
and my mechanic Craig who confirmed the head gasket diagnosis and also was on hand today to do the final cam timing,
top bloke and I can highly recommend him to anyone in the surrey area,has all the kit, right down to a compressor in his A team like van and all of the tools and diagnostic software you could ever need.
and to all for your suggestions and encouragement along the way I thank you very much...
as Vinnie jones would say,it's been emotional.
oil and filter change in the next day or two..
I will then spend the next few days enjoying what I hope will be from here on in be apart form the "normal Z stuff" a trouble free and enjoyable drive.
best all
Joe
it has been a journey and a half from diagnosing the problem to fixing it...
the work done in the last month
new radiator, hoses and fan delete mod, modified air-box goes in tomorrow,new engine temp sensor as well,and of course the head gasket which was no mean feat as on this 17 yr old car all of the bolts were either inaccessible or seized meaning just getting the cylinder head off was a long and fiddly task as was replacing it.
those exhaust manifold bolts were a nightmare!
have also fixed the rocking seats re-proofed and re-dyed the hood and gone round and touched in all of the stone chips..
previously replaced ,water pump and thermostat.
head was skimmed and tested all good, interestingly the ends had .42 off and the middle .2 clearly indicating the head had warped in the overheat quite significantly.
in order to skim the head we had to remove the camshafts valves,hydraulic lifters and all of the assorted stuff in the cylinder head.
all the valves were lapped in before re-assembly to ensure good seal and compression.
the cylinder head was then bolted down to torque with the correct sequence as per the haynes manual, Gasket was a 1.74 victor Reinz and the head bolts Elring all from ECP, we also replaced the rocker cover gasket whilst at it, I decided not to go with the thicker head gasket having established on the 318 forum that as much as .45 is ok without using the 2.03 thickness Gasket.
on our first fire up she ran like a bag of spanners! we had used the camshaft locking tool and the flywheel pin as well as marking the camshaft timing wheels so we couldn't work out what was wrong, I suspected timing and was right, and here is why....
for every 12 thou milled of a head the camshaft alignment will be out by one degree, as we had milled of .42 at the ends this meant the timing was roughly 3 degrees out as the distance between the crankshaft and camshaft timing wheels was shorter.
as we have a timing chain rather than a belt we cant move the chain as one tooth represent 12 degrees.
the only option is to adjust the sprocket wheels by the desired amount in the right direction, as the mill advances the timing by 3 degrees you have to compensate by retarding by that amount on the M44 they are luckily adjustable.
as of early this afternoon success! ..running beautifully with smoother idle and a more even acceleration curve, no leaks and despite removal of the viscous fan the lower temp fan switch in the rad means its all as it should be.
A very special thanks goes out to Barry Gadd, not just for his help but in educating a mechanical newbie to the point where I would confidently tackle this again on my own with the odd bit of help here and there..I now feel able to handle all future servicing and overhauls on the car..not bad for a 3 week crash course!..
spurs fan (andy) thanks for not just lending me the timing tool but actually dropping round, also above and beyond the call of duty.
and my mechanic Craig who confirmed the head gasket diagnosis and also was on hand today to do the final cam timing,
top bloke and I can highly recommend him to anyone in the surrey area,has all the kit, right down to a compressor in his A team like van and all of the tools and diagnostic software you could ever need.
and to all for your suggestions and encouragement along the way I thank you very much...
as Vinnie jones would say,it's been emotional.
oil and filter change in the next day or two..
I will then spend the next few days enjoying what I hope will be from here on in be apart form the "normal Z stuff" a trouble free and enjoyable drive.
best all
Joe
B
badman gee
Guest
Good stuff, glad it's turned out ok in the end.
Brilliant news Joe and good summary - I'll have to change my morning routine now - the last month has involved logging on early to read the next chapter in the saga. 
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2011
- Points
- 175
Awesome news mate, glad it's all done!
Go ahead and archive it Gaz...!
i'm glad its all over...I will say once again what a fantastic forum and bunch of chaps you all are..
would I have had this much help and encouragement if I were on the porsche boxster forum...?
I think not, if anything this has made me a more committed Z owner, even when I thought that I might have to get another car I looked high and low from Saabs to Mercs and nothing quite grabbed me the way the Z does.
and on top of that made a fantastic mate in Barry..its all been worth it really.
just went for a spin and its lovely to be back in the saddle.
p.s due in swindon in the next week or two Gaz so will be round for tea and a biscuit!
i'm glad its all over...I will say once again what a fantastic forum and bunch of chaps you all are..
would I have had this much help and encouragement if I were on the porsche boxster forum...?
I think not, if anything this has made me a more committed Z owner, even when I thought that I might have to get another car I looked high and low from Saabs to Mercs and nothing quite grabbed me the way the Z does.
and on top of that made a fantastic mate in Barry..its all been worth it really.
just went for a spin and its lovely to be back in the saddle.
p.s due in swindon in the next week or two Gaz so will be round for tea and a biscuit!