employment law...

[swamper]

hiya peeps........as above does anyone one have any knowledge of the above?
we seem to be running into a dispute with our employers and i cant seem to find a definitive answer to a question that has arisen over bank holidays and the working of.
the problem is that we are contracted to work the bank holidays....and get the day back in lieu.. that we accept!...however now they are telling us that we now work the morning only and get the afternoon back in lieu.............well this has gone down like a lead balloon.
the question is can the tell us when we can have the time back given that its a state holiday?
there is no other time of the year when they can tell us we have to take time off and we all abide by the rules so that there are only so many of us off at one time so it wont affect out estate...but the want us in for just the morning on the bank holidays.......

 

[SeaSurfer]

That sounds like a change in contractual arrangements. What does it say in your contract of employment about holidays and bank holidays. Usually they have to 'agree' with an employee of any changes not just say these rules now apply. In effect, what you are saying is that your holiday entitlement is being chopped, if thats every bank holiday, thats by 4 days per year :-o
I would ring ACAS or CAB, they will be able to tell you where you stand and what to do about it. How many days a week do you work and how many holidays do you get a year, you should get 5.6 weeks per year for a 5 day a week (which can include bank holidays) and pro-rata if a part time worker.

 

[swamper]

cheers Gill....on the phone ACAS

we work a 6 on 3 off shift............well ACAS has just informed me that the company are right.......they can tell us when to take any holidays as long as we get them thats all that matters..................bugger!
well im going to have to grovel to my boss now..............wont be the first time )

 

[hard top]

You should try working offshore with me matey boy, holidays? what are they?.... :ymdaydream:

 

[Titan]

I'm not so sure that this is so cut and dried.....
The precise wording of your contract may help.
Although you may be contracted to work Bank Holidays and have a day off in lieu, your employer is now saying you can only have half a day off.
If you take this to its extreme, you could be asked to work half days (say AM) during your leave period and have only PMs off.
Not very good if you are in Spain!
You said it's a 6 on 3 off shift, but you are now being forced into a 5.5 day on 3.5 off.
I would advise caution and taking further advice before eating too much humble pie

 

[badman gee]

Have a good look at your contract, but there are many companies who behave this way.

Michelle works for such a company, and they are very firm on when people can take holidays.

Her company gives extra annual leave to compensate for working bank holidays.

They want blood out of a stone most companies.

Mark

 

[SeaSurfer]

Yes some companies have to have certain periods when holidays can be taken due to all sorts of reasons, but it seems like swamps is having his cut. As Mr T says, take further advice, i would.

 

[swamper]

hmmm the guy from ACAS reckons that it can be in-forced.............but like you say this puts us in a 5.5 not a 6....
this isnt going to go down well ....iv just gone for the post of senior engineer.......cant see that happening now )
ok....im going to look into this more..........your right its a change in shift pattern...that has not been agreed.

 

[zedonist]

Hi Swamper,

Check this out, may help:

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/faqs/topics/4, ... open#95974

What I would say is, your contract is the key, if it states in your contract that as part of shift work you have to work bank holidays when it is your shift to work, then any changes whether positive or negative must be discussed with you with prior notice of the change and confirmed in writing as it constitutes an amendment to contract even if temporary. If it is not a contractual requirement, or you do not have bank holidays included in your contract, then refusal to work could render you liable to disciplinary procedures.

Read your contract if as you say at the beginning of your post is correct then written agreement from you is required for the change and consultation should have taken place prior

 

[Jonttt]

Oh no, not employment law discussions on a car forum. Only joking but having spent many years of my life "discussing" employment law with trade unions (half the time create arguments to justify their jobs), Human Resource Departments (generally useless), arbitration with ACAS (generally useless), solicitors (just want your money) and emplyment tribunals (generally very fair) then I'll take the fifth amendment (sorry if I've upset anybody who works in any of the above professions but all my own personal experience).

A few comments though, as stated above your contract of employment is key (but remember terms can be varied by "custom and practice") but often they are "silent" / vague on the point of query.

Generally speaking an employer can change terms so long as they are considered reasonable (can be all sorts of reasons, costs, new working practices, etc...) but the nature of the change can dictate if consultation, how much notice, compensation is required, etc.....

Without knowing all of the facts but from what you have said I do not think your employer is being unreasonable.

What most people forget is that the days of employment staying the same for 50 years have long gone. Most companies in most sectors need to be flexible to survive / grow. They key is usually down to communication and the company being honest and upfront about the need for the change and getting the buy in of the workforce. Thats not to say changes will suit everyone all of the time. There are of course unscrupulous companies out there and these are what the likes of ACAS are really interested in. Thier response to your query is not unexpected as on the face of it the request seems reasonable and they will not really be interested in spending more time investigating it. Go and see an employment solicitor and you would likely get the opposite answer for obvious reasons. There is probably no easily definative answer from what you've said so I personally would enquire more about the reasons for the change and ultimately decide if you put yourself in their shoes, is it reasonable ?

Human nature is to keep things as they are, the world does not work that way anymore ;-)

 

[swamper]

zedonist im going to have to dig my contract out...but yes we are contracted to work bank holidays....but we have get the day back (within 4 weeks) and up to us when we have it.
ACAS have told me that they can change it just giving 2 days notice of the change.
its just now we work the mornings then have the afternoon off (our time back in lieu)...but the lads aren't getting home till mid afternoon...in real terms we have just lost out bank holiday .

John the changes have been made just considering the business side......ie keeping the estate up and running over the bank holiday...not unreasonable.
but as iv put the lads in the real world are loosing a day off.....this is why they have done it...it now saves them giving back the holiday.
the bank holiday is not part of our holiday entitlement.....to put it bluntly we've just been screwed over

 

[Jonttt]

Without knowing the exact nature of the job it sounds as though you need to clarify how many hours counts as a half day and simply stop working after that number of hours to prove the point ?

 

[swamper]

yep John we already went down that route and have been told we are to do 3.5 hours.........leave site at 12.30.....but the grudge comes as some of the jobs can be 2 hours drive home on a bank holiday or worse...so the lads are getting back mid afternoon.......how can that be half day?
we have to accept that in real terms we have just lost our bank holidays............
this is just one of many cuts that they have made and it seems that its always the engineers that take the brunt of it...
this is a wealthy company who made millions in the first quarter profit.......but they still penny pinch.
if my theory is right i don't think they are trying to save money as such.....i think they are trying to make the estate/ engineering force...look better than it is....ready to sell us on

 

[board]

It's always tricky with travel times but depending on where the job is then travel time should be included. If you live in london and they send you to scotland then generally you can't be expected to travel in your own time unless you chose to get a job in scotland. I would have a good look through the contract and see exactly what time is allocated to travel and what is reasonable. They may take the stance that it's the travel time/distance from the office you are assigned to in which case you will win some and lose some, this is quite common, but if you're 4 hours away from home then you would really need to include a certain amount of time in your working day.

Do you have a company vehicle? If so then you are likely to be working when you get into it if your base is from home. I have been in this situation quite a few times.

 

[badman gee]

if i was your boss swamps, id have you cleaning the toilets.

on a half day bank holiday

)

 

[swamper]

im a white van man and a home based engineer...were just going to see how this pans out next bank holiday...

mark..........im not sure who you are...........have you posted in the into section yet...?

 

[badman gee]

 

[board]

If you're home based then I would get the travel time clarified. i can't remember what is reasonable now, maybe the first hour of travel but your contract will quite possibly state you're working from the point that you leave home. In which case half a day unless it's just down the road is fairly useless.

I had a company send me all over the place and I got fed up with it. It was supposed to be travel within the working day and after doing a stint of 05:00 starts and getting in at 21:00 I was promised a break, which lasted all of two days before they sent me on a 300+ mile round trip. So to make the point I did it in working hours. the trouble was that because i left at 08:30 instead of 05:30 I hit rush hour. Then by the time i got to site it was time to turn around and go back again so my day of work consisted of sitting in the car. Sometimes you have to play the game

Alternatively you claim the extra hours as overtime. Then you start to get the benefit in the pocket

It also depends on how much trouble you want to cause

 

[swamper]

iv got bags full of trouble )
we seen to be able to claim the travel back in overtime.....but isnt that forced overtime?
300 + a day can be quite an average day for us lot

 

[board]

I used to commute 100 miles each way in my own time so if you can get it in as overtime then I'd make the most of it while it lasts