Time to get stuck in....

[Steve Medlock]

A minor disaster this morning I have to report. I'd just fitted the new calipers and pads and connected all the new lines up when it was obvious that I had a bad leak. Remember this?

The 12mm fitting that I reused obviously needs a bigger flair than my Seeley tool will produce. I tried nipping it up but the fitting is bottoming out without making a seal. I stripped the entire line out, cut the flair off and re-made it but it didn't seem to be much different so i didn't bother to pressure test it. Anyway, I've ordered a single line from Automec. I'm still a bit annoyed that I paid £80 for a set of lines which weren't correct for my car but I just don't have infinite time and patience t sort that out.

No time for car repairs next week I'm afraid so hopefully back under the Z second week in May!

 

[Lee]

That's a pain, I thought you hadn't flared it looking at your photo. If you need another tool I can post my flare kit. It's a Halfords kit. Not amazing but it's done lots of repairs.

 

[Grumps]

Excellent work mate. As already said, considering you don't have a garage your doing a sterling job.

 

[t-tony]

That large Union only needs a standard flare Steve, I usually allow a fraction more pipe to make the flare but that is all. Might be worth marking the pipe to be sure it has not pushed back through the tool as you made the flare?

Tony.

 

[colb]

Good how to make flares here

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDyEu_NYK8

 

[Steve Medlock]

Thanks Chaps. That's pretty much the tool that I have although its marketed by Seeley. I've watched all the vidoes and practised but I still don't have faith in what I'm producing which is why i prefer to get the lines ready made. I've had a replacement pipe made for the one that leaked made by Automec.

I was a bit surprised though to find that it has double flairs instead of the bubble flairs that I was expecting. I rang to see if it was a mistake and they said that they always make double flairs and it will seal perfectly . I'm sure they much know what they're talking about but could anyone else confirm that before I start putting the bends in the pipe please?

 

[t-tony]

Just to be sure Steve, what I call a single flare (operation1 in all flaring tools that I know of) leaves a convex end to the pipe which is mated to a concave seat in the hose or cylinder. A double flare (operation 2 of a flaring tool) leaves a concave end to the pipe which is mated to a convex seat in the hose or cylinder. I did a "how to flare brake pipe ends" and posted it on here a few years ago.
You need to check that the pipe they've supplied you with is compatible with what ever unions it will be screwed into, if the pipe has double flares the hose or cylinder must have a convex seat( ie male) Hope that makes sense.

Tony.

ps. Just to be clear, you have to do Op.1 with a flaring tool before you can do Op.2

Sorry if I'm telling you things you already know mate.

 

[Sean d]

Great Job you are doing Steve, I might do mine next winter.

 

[Steve Medlock]

Just to be sure Steve, what I call a single flare (operation1 in all flaring tools that I know of) leaves a convex end to the pipe which is mated to a concave seat in the hose or cylinder. A double flare (operation 2 of a flaring tool) leaves a concave end to the pipe which is mated to a convex seat in the hose or cylinder. I did a "how to flare brake pipe ends" and posted it on here a few years ago.
You need to check that the pipe they've supplied you with is compatible with what ever unions it will be screwed into, if the pipe has double flares the hose or cylinder must have a convex seat( ie male) Hope that makes sense.

Tony.

ps. Just to be clear, you have to do Op.1 with a flaring tool before you can do Op.2

Sorry if I'm telling you things you already know mate.

Yes, that's my understanding too Tony. AFAIK the Z3 has ISO bubble flairs all round, (the only complication is both M10 and M12 nuts are used).

The Automec pipe has double flairs - I'm assuming that what he's saying is that the seal is made around the periphery of the flair rather than the central section?

 

[Steve Medlock]

http://www.rtsauto.com/brake-lines-for-bmws-and-e30s-the-bubble-flare-not-the-double-flare/

Suggests the opposite of what they told me.

 

[t-tony]

Yes, that's my understanding too Tony. AFAIK the Z3 has ISO bubble flairs all round, (the only complication is both M10 and M12 nuts are used).

The Automec pipe has double flairs - I'm assuming that what he's saying is that the seal is made around the periphery of the flair rather than the central section?

I think they have given you bad info Steve.

Tony.

 

[Steve Medlock]

Well I'm still making no progress. This is the reply from Automec:

Hello Steve

Thank you for the link to the information you have found online which is relevant to flares on steel pipe but not copper or copper nickel. The idea of a Universal double flare is that it works in all applications with copper and copper nickel to seal the pipe which are softer metals than steel. We have been supplying BMW brake pipe sets with that flare for many years so we know that the flare is safe. We can supply you with another pipe with single flares which would be chargeable but we would not consider it to be safe enough for softer pipe. It is important that the seat of the flare matches the seat of the fitting to form a seal so if you are using DIN fittings, the flare must also be a DIN flare not the SAE flare that we use on our pipes. In either case, the flare should be a double flare on copper pipe.

I hope that answers your questions.
Kind regards
Nicki Wanford
Customer Services Manager

and my response back:

Dear Nicki,

Many thanks for your reply.

To avoid confusion, please note that I have not discussed or mentioned single flairs. I have only sought to clarify if a double flair (SAE) is interchangeable with a bubble flair (DIN).

As far as I am aware, BMW, in common with other European manufacturers, use the Bubble flair (DIN). To quote from the link I provided previously,
“The next thing you need to know is that BMW’s use BUBBLE FLARES, not double flares. This is critical to know, because you can not join a double and a bubble flare together. On the right is a Bubble flare and on the left is a double flare. BMW’s and E30’s use Bubble flares.”

If I understand you correctly, I think that you are saying that your pipe with SAE flairs should not be used on a BMW which uses DIN flairs, otherwise the following will not be true ‘the seat of the flair matches the seat of the fitting’.

I should be grateful if you could clarify this please as I am still not sure whether I can use the pipe that you have supplied.

Regards
Steve Medlock

 

[Steve Medlock]

I never did finish this thread, so here goes... Well I finally sorted the brake pipe issues and eventually got all the unions leakproof. I hadn't expected the brake lines to be more of a trial than the subframe etc! Then I had a couple of holidays and friends visiting and the warmer weather was here with the car still on jack stands. At long last I took it for the MOT on Friday and I'm back on the road.

Was it all worth it? Well the car now drives really nicely - a real contrast to when I first got it. Nice predictable handling and steering. Its quiet (apart from the exhaust) and the first to second gear change clunk has virtually gone (changed guibo and diff bush). Even more of a pleasure to drive now.

So, paint and rust next....

 

[Steve Medlock]

Oh, and I fitted the refurbed wheels and new tyres after the MOT!

 

[t-tony]

Grand job Steve nice to see your progress mate.

Tony.

 

[Grumps]

Looking good mate. A well sorted car with years ahead of it.

 

[Antm72]

A great result aalot of hard work but worth the time and effort I'm sure

 

[Jonno Bee]

Fine effort Steve. Looks great!