Some M44 help please

[NZ00Z3]

Good spotting. Are there any special tools needed to redo the timing if you decide to take it apart?

 

[Brian H]

Do you think the cams have been removed at some point Steve? Just wondering why the sprocket would need adjustment!

 

[t-tony]

@Stevo7682 , hey mate we have an Autodata Timing chain manual at work. I will "liberate" it tomorrow and bring it home to see if there's any info in there to help.

Tony.

 

[Stevo7682]

Thanks Tony that would be appreciated
Brian I only have some service history but got a reciept from 2016 for work to chain tensioner and casing seals for oil leaks.
Now that I have the rocker cover off there is various paint marks on sprockets confirmation that someone been in there.
@Murray Wall apart from the obvious casing removal ( just bolts etc ) the 2 tools you really need are something like these ones
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/322270688063.
The pin to lock up flywheel and the metal plate to set the cams at TDC.

As it stands the cams all look in the right place my concern is that because the inlet cam sprocket if fitted 1 bolt hole to the right of where it should be is that the cam sensor plate bolted to it ( even though it's mark is vertical) is possibly not exactly in the correct position so now I know it's not right really going to have to set it properly to rule it all out.

 

[t-tony]

Have "aquired" the book Steve will post info tonight.

Tony.

 

[Stevo7682]

Have "aquired" the book Steve will post info tonight.

Tony.

Thanks Tony compare to what info I have and what I can currently see on the car itself .
Still think I'm going to pull it apart and line up properly ( weather permitting this weekend).
Because I will never be 100% happy I have ruled that side of things out of the equation unless I realign it.
Stephen.

 

[t-tony]

Looks like you'll need a bar to lock the cams and a pin mate. It gives all the tool numbers.

Tony.

 

[Brian H]

Interesting video, skip to 15mins the sprocket and the cam shaft sensor plate have arrows that line up, do they on yours Stephen?

 

[Stevo7682]

Update coming up .
Been working on it after work just going down to Chinese for some late dinner then I will put up what I found
( averted potential disaster . )

 

[NZ00Z3]

Hi

After looking at the videos, your photos and the Bentley manual, I would suggest that your cam and inlet timing plate are all set up correctly. They all look the same as yours.

{The witness marks on the back of the sprocket can not line up with any of the possible bolting options as its a four bolt flange. } Wow did I get that wrong

All the white paint marks line up.

Hope this helps

Murray

 

[Stevo7682]

@Brian H no Brian they didn't line up that's what had the alarm bells ringing.

Came home tonight from work decided make a start on cooling system needing drained to get the thermostat housing off the front to allow upper timing casing removal.
Things were going well so off came the casing as well.
In total there are 3 timing marks 1 on each cam sprocket and 1 on the daisy wheel ( the cam sensor plate)
The exh cam mark and daisy wheel mark ok but the inlet was out

I would like to say at this point that the camshaft themselves are in the correct position.

Anyway took off the chain tensioner and undone the 4 sprocket bolts ( really tight 1st couple of turns) removed the daisy wheel to expose the sprocket mark better

That's when I noticed the way bigger issue.
I was right that the pulley was incorrectly fitted .
If you look at the 4 adjustable pulley bolt mounting points you will see the cam isn't actually behind them so the only thing holding the sprocket on was the daisy wheel.

The daisy wheel also suffered a bit of damage as a result of this.
Turned the sprocket and straightened the daisy wheel and refitted back in correct position

It was getting on for 9 o'clock by this point and getting a bit dark so that's as far as I have got .
So even if it doesn't run any better at least I have the piece of mind that the cam sprocket isn't going to fly off and take out the engine with it .

 

[NZ00Z3]

Well done, quite the detective work. Hope it all goes back together well.

 

[Jack Ratt]

Well spotted, looks like the inlet cam sprocket has been put in one or may be two teeth out. The retaining bolts should be in the centre of the slots on both inlet and exhaust cams with the timing marks in alignment and the cams set at TDC.

Looks like the person who previously assembled the engine was rushing to get home or for a tea break. The cam sensor plates are shaped to prevent you from refitting them incorrectly but ignorance and brute strength continues to override conventionality.

She'll run well now Steve, good work

 

[Brian H]

Well done Stephen, on hindsight we can see the result of what you now know in the previous pictures you posted.

Update.....

Here's a little update on this .
Bought a new cam sensor while fitting and having top half of inlet manifold off looked over all the breathers again ( all look ok) so fitted sensor but unfortunately no major improvement so once again double checked all round the breathers and manifold ( checked with carb cleaner on cold engine to reduce fire risk ) but nothing obviously wrong.
That was a couple of weeks ago.
It's still light for a bit once I get in from work so decided to get into it again and check the timing next ( one of it's previous invoice for work to breathers and timing casing seals)
So off came the rocker cover engine set to TDC ( various paint marks on sprocket etc but expected to be as it had been apart)
On first look all seemed to be well View attachment 77531But on closer inspection I found something that is not quite right ( whether or not it will repair zed remains to be seen)
When the engine is at TDC the cams themselves appear to be in correct position it's the right hand sprocket that's wrong View attachment 77533on the left-hand exhaust sprocket the timing marker is vertical where it should be .
The right hand inlet sprocket also has a cam sensor plate on it .(it and the sprocket both have timing marker.
The cam plate mark is vertical but the sprocket mark quarter turn to the right.
Cam plate has an location knotch beside the timing marker and this is slightly bent as not correct positioned.
View attachment 77534 you can see the shiny bit on the rear of the sprocket where the pulley was covered by the camshaft.
So my thinking is that the cam sensor pick up plate may be a tiny bit out due to not being fitted to the sprocket in the right place .
So the plan is to take a bit further apart and putt if all back to the correct place and see if that sorts it .
Stephen.

 

[Brian H]

@Stevo7682 did you manage to sort this?

 

[Stevo7682]

Been a while since I posted any updates about this .
Since timing the engine correctly the symptoms became more obvious to the extent of now producing a persistent fault codes for misfire cylinder 2 and 4.
Long story short
A number of new parts later and exactly the same issue existent.
There are various parts of the top end poorly worked upon so time to bite the bullet I have an engine getting picked up in Northamptonshire tomorrow so 1 way or the other it will get sorted won't see other engine here till early next week so going to remove the cylinder head over next couple of days see what it all looks like inside
So more pictures and updates to follow next couple of days.

 

[Stevo7682]

Some progress has been made ( of sorts )

started to clean up the block tonight

 

[t-tony]

Did you find anything as you stripped it Steve.?

Tony.

 

[Stevo7682]

Did you find anything as you stripped it Steve.?

Tony.

Nothing conclusive yet Tony still need to do valve leak off test on head ( need to undo the cams so all the valves are shut 1st ) .
Although I am still leaning towards the head being off before at some point as like I have said before 2 of the exhaust cam caps are on back to front and when I went to undo the head bolts 2 of the inverted torque heads were damaged ( one not too bad but the back left one was pretty chewed wasn't sure I had good enough hold of it to crack off the tension but managed to get it )
Still haven't made the decision on whether to split the head off the other engine or rip the rest of this one out and swap the full unit .
Will be honest though.
As I am doing this at the house I am leaning towards the head swap because as far as I'm concerned none of the running problems are indicative of a bottom end issue .

 

[Paul Weller]

I guess you have checked every gasket, tune and clip in the suction line for air leaks? Also I know on Saabs hot start, running and economy are affected by failing coil pack?