Electric - a false dawn ? what do you think ?

gookah

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yes it will happen. The plans have been announced for small scale aggregation of power from domestic batteries, be that solar panel battery storage or even car batteries..


see here:


Consumers in the UK could save billions of pounds thanks to major changes in the way electricity is made, used and stored, the government has said.

New rules will make it easier for people to generate their own power with solar panels, store it in batteries and sell it to the National Grid.

If they work, consumers will save £17bn to £40bn by 2050, according to the government and energy regulator Ofgem.

The rules are due to come into effect over the next year.

They will reduce costs for someone who allows their washing machine to be turned on by the internet to maximise use of cheap solar power on a sunny afternoon.

And they will even support people who agree to have their freezers switched off for a few minutes to smooth demand at peak times.

They'll also benefit a business that allows its air-conditioning to be turned down briefly to help balance a spell of peak energy demand on the National Grid.

Among the first to gain from the rule changes will be people with solar panels and battery storage. At the moment they are charged tariffs when they import electricity into their home or export it back to the grid.

The government has realised that this rule must change because it deters people from using power more flexibly in a way that will benefit everyone.

Thanks to improvements in digital technology, battery storage and renewables, these innovations in flexibility are already under way with millions of people across the UK generating and storing electricity.

The new rules have been designed to cash in on this.

The government will set up a "battery institute" to fund firms seeking major breakthroughs in battery research and development.

Its critics say it has been slow to support the burgeoning battery industry - and has allowed South Korea, Japan and China to take a lead.

The tiny energy savings of millions of people and firms will be pulled together into packages by traders, who will offer substantial chunks of energy saving to the National Grid at the click of a computer.

Under the new system you should be able to tell your machine to do the washing when the sun comes out, to take advantage of solar power
So instead of predicting peak demand then building power stations to meet it, energy managers will be able to trade in Negawatts - negative electricity.

In a speech made in Birmingham, Business Secretary Greg Clark outlined further a £246m investment in the UK's industrial strategy, with energy at its heart.

He gave details of a competition for innovation in battery technology, which he says will help make the UK a world leader in battery design and manufacture.

Nicola Shaw, executive director of National Grid, previously told BBC News that between 30% and 50% of fluctuations on the grid could be smoothed by households and businesses adjusting their demand at peak times.

'Moment of change'
"We are at a moment of real change in the energy industry," she said.

"From an historic perspective, we created energy in big generating organisations that sent power to houses and their businesses.

"Now we are producing energy in those places - mostly with solar power."

An Ofgem source told BBC News the current rules on trading energy are not fit for the digital age because they often discourage people using energy flexibly.

The rules were made before the digital revolution and before the boom in variable renewable energy.
 
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Lazzzydog

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That is quite impressive until I saw the figure of 246 million in industrial strategy with no mention of what timescale this investment will be made. Even if it is over the next 12 months it is just a drop in the ocean compared to what will be needed to convert fully to electricity over the next 23 years. I would be far more enthusiastic if we were investing serious amounts into being self sufficient for electricity rather than relying on money from France and China and whoever wants to throw their hat in the ring.
Bye bye Ironbridge.
 

Redline

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Energy storage as well as generation is key.
If you have GW of electricity available in car batteries then you might as well make it available to use.

There are issues around switching out load like washing machines and tumble driers. Because of potential fire issues that now surround these higher consumption devices, it would be unwise to remotely shed load and then re-apply it after you have gone out or gone to bed. There will be tears unless robust controls are put in place around domestic load shedding.
 

gookah

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Ironbridge stopped generating at end of 2015, ready for demolition now.
Sky's are cleaner over Shropshire.
The timescale is a seemingly short one, but it has to begin now or we will be stuffed. Forward thinking at last. I can do all sorts now using Amazon Alexa, control room temperatures switch appliances and lights on and off, that was unheard of in domestic use a few years ago. now its here and things are changing technologically at an exponential rate.
We all walk around with a mini computer nowadays and no one bats an eyelid of how far we have come.
We have 23 years, how technology advances now that will seem like a few hundred of the old years. the country is trying to move away from old stye generation and these are the first steps to be self sufficient for electric.
 

gookah

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Ironbridge stopped generating at end of 2015, ready for demolition now.
Sky's are cleaner over Shropshire.
The timescale is a seemingly short one, but it has to begin now or we will be stuffed. Forward thinking at last. I can do all sorts now using Amazon Alexa, control room temperatures switch appliances and lights on and off, that was unheard of in domestic use a few years ago. now its here and things are changing technologically at an exponential rate.
We all walk around with a mini computer nowadays and no one bats an eyelid of how far we have come.
We have 23 years, how technology advances now that will seem like a few hundred of the old years. the country is trying to move away from old stye generation and these are the first steps to be self sufficient for electric
renewables can generate, and batteries can store power for when the wind stops and the daylight ends.
 

Redline

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Ironbridge stopped generating at end of 2015, ready for demolition now.
Sky's are cleaner over Shropshire.
The timescale is a seemingly short one, but it has to begin now or we will be stuffed. Forward thinking at last. I can do all sorts now using Amazon Alexa, control room temperatures switch appliances and lights on and off, that was unheard of in domestic use a few years ago. now its here and things are changing technologically at an exponential rate.
We all walk around with a mini computer nowadays and no one bats an eyelid of how far we have come.
We have 23 years, how technology advances now that will seem like a few hundred of the old years. the country is trying to move away from old stye generation and these are the first steps to be self sufficient for electric
renewables can generate, and batteries can store power for when the wind stops and the daylight ends.
Necessity is the mother of invention. Create the necessity if you have to create innovation.
 

andyglym

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Interesting times though until such time wind and solar can store electricity in the quantities we need every day I feel that it's some way off just yet. Currently 451 Nuclear Power Plants in the World today that can and do generate massive power 24/7 And can increase and decrease on demand. China and Asia are building like there's no tomorrow at the mo so will be around for at least 100 years yet. Loads of oil too boot. A mixture of all available power sources for the foreseeable future is key, renewables, fossils and Nuclear is currently the best option. Renewables and electric cars are undoubtedly the future but are they as cost effective as we are led to believe? With massive subsidies, probably not but will be viable in time. I'm confident that most, if not all on here will not out live their petrol Zed. Read somewhere that you need to run an all electric car for 8 years before it's considered "carbon" neutral, Oh, then more power packs. True or not my fun in my petrol car still has many years to go :) Other views are available :D
 

hard top

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And this is why the Arabs & the Yanks are always at it.....

The world has about 763 billion "undiscovered" barrels of oil, of which roughly 26 percent indeed belongs to the USA.
These figures don't include the actual reserves currently being drilled across the globe, which are quite significant.
Saudi Arabia alone has about 262 billion proven barrels available.
 

andyglym

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And this is why the Arabs & the Yanks are always at it.....

The world has about 763 billion "undiscovered" barrels of oil, of which roughly 26 percent indeed belongs to the USA.
These figures don't include the actual reserves currently being drilled across the globe, which are quite significant.
Saudi Arabia alone has about 262 billion proven barrels available.
Indeed mate, just biding their time. 8 billion barrels in and around the Falkland Islands (we didn't go to save the sheep and upland geese) and 14 billion barrels just waiting to be used in Canada. Loads left.
 

Lazzzydog

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I will admit to being a dinosaur but I cannot help thinking that if we are sitting on a coal supply that is estimated to be good for a thousand years ahead that it would be more prudent to re-open the collieries and develope the coal powered power stations to acceptable pollution levels before harnessing solar and wind power.
I realise that this is in complete contrast to accepted government policy but remember these are the people who want to spend billions on HS2 to reduce travel from London to Brum by 20 minutes instead of investing in local branch lines. They are also the same people that sold off the family silver in the shape of British Gas, Local Authority housing, British Rail in the name of privatisation. The folks that used to work for these organisations now sit at home on benefits, at least when there were three council lads leaning on shovels and one working they had to get up and out of the house for their 26k.
 

gookah

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at the moment there are 20.000 Nissan Electric vehicles in the UK all with a 15-30 kWh battery, those linked together give a storage capacity in excess of 300MW.
Tesla cars are even greater power stores, the potential to tap into a lot of these at peak demand times irons out the demand on the power stations when most people get home and turn on all their appliances.
Car charging will be available at workplaces so that they can be topped up during the day, and used as a resource between 5pm and 6pm when the grid demand is greatest.
 

Lazzzydog

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I'm sorry but I just cannot grasp the logic in this argument. The energy in those cars has to be generated, they are simply storage vessels and not generators. All you are doing is robbing Peter to Pay Paul.
 

andyglym

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at the moment there are 20.000 Nissan Electric vehicles in the UK all with a 15-30 kWh battery, those linked together give a storage capacity in excess of 300MW.
Tesla cars are even greater power stores, the potential to tap into a lot of these at peak demand times irons out the demand on the power stations when most people get home and turn on all their appliances.
Car charging will be available at workplaces so that they can be topped up during the day, and used as a resource between 5pm and 6pm when the grid demand is greatest.
No doubt and agreed but the World is just not ready to buy into this just yet. In time it will but it need a reliable and steady source as people just are not ready and will not accept that they can only do certain things at certain times. We have been turned into a 24/7 when we like community. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
 

gookah

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I will admit to being a dinosaur but I cannot help thinking that if we are sitting on a coal supply that is estimated to be good for a thousand years ahead that it would be more prudent to re-open the collieries and develope the coal powered power stations to acceptable pollution levels before harnessing solar and wind power.
I realise that this is in complete contrast to accepted government policy but remember these are the people who want to spend billions on HS2 to reduce travel from London to Brum by 20 minutes instead of investing in local branch lines. They are also the same people that sold off the family silver in the shape of British Gas, Local Authority housing, British Rail in the name of privatisation. The folks that used to work for these organisations now sit at home on benefits, at least when there were three council lads leaning on shovels and one working they had to get up and out of the house for their 26k.
they are also the same people that saw the pit closure program through. I was a coal face engineer,
Coal mines will not reopen in our lifetimes again. Its old style fossil fuel and though there was 300 years of coal left it was dirty, unhealthy and expensive and unsafe to obtain.
Thank god I got rid of my coal fire when I was made redundant, The first thing I did was convert to gas. That has happened on a national generation scale too.
The government would not spend on clean coal technology, but that was just 'smoke' and mirrors too.
We are trying to get away from reliance on the oil rich countries, and about time too..
(cos scotland won't be around the UK much longer either)
 

t-tony

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Many years ago Coaching stations had to supply horses so people could continue their journeys, next thing was Petrol stations came about to do the same job. Electric charging points will inevitably come to the same thing with electric cars. It's just progress, it will happen, sooner or later. All electric or petrol Hybrids, I don't care just get shut of horrible, noisy, smelly diesels.

Tony.
 

gookah

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I'm sorry but I just cannot grasp the logic in this argument. The energy in those cars has to be generated, they are simply storage vessels and not generators. All you are doing is robbing Peter to Pay Paul.
you charge with renewables, and use when the peak demand is required and the daylight has gone and the wind has stopped blowing.

They are not 'generators' of electric, they store it, and are used to top up the grid when required
 

andyglym

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you charge with renewables, and use when the peak demand is required and the daylight has gone and the wind has stopped blowing.

They are not 'generators' of electric, they store it, and are used to top up the grid when required
Agreed but the infrastructure is massive and expensive. I'm sure it will come because we need to reduce our carbon footprint to reduce health issues and environment issues. "They" will let us know when the technology is available and will probably coincide with the demise of oil etc
 
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