VW emissions fallout.

t-tony

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The prices are lowering themselves though Brian simply because people don't want to buy these vehicles as much since this bad publicity. That's surely where compensation is applicable. The value of Shirl's Eos has dropped sharply in the last couple of years, an identical car just sold on eBay £8,795 on a 6 year old car that originally cost well north of £20,000. If some compensation comes our way I will very happily accept it , VW have no-one to blame but themselves.

Tony.
 

mrscalex

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The basis of the contract for the claim is:

I confirm that had I known my vehicle:

1. was not compliant with the relevant European emissions regulations and therefore should not have been registered and allowed to be driven on public roads; or

2. emitted higher volumes of NOx than was stated on its registration documents (the V5 Logbook); or

3. was fitted with an unlawful device which sensed when the vehicle was undergoing emissions testing, and altered its performance accordingly; or

4. would need to be recalled in order for a technical measure to be carried out in order to ensure it was compliant with European emissions regulations,

I would not have bought it.

My added note - if your car was bought in Scotland or Northern Ireland you can't join the claim. Not sure if that's me. Mine came from a dealer in Scotland but I'm based in England. But I'm not joining the claim anyway.
 

Redline

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I've not had a rant for a few days. Here goes.... :whistle: There's nothing on tv anyway.

I don't see any individual being out of pocket directly as a result of the VW con. The software in question was activated in very specific operational circumstances that wouldn't arise in normal circumstances so wouldn't impact consumption. Convincing a court otherwise is a high hurdle to jump. It's possible to decompile the code but proving what it does line by line is not easy. It's hard enough just doing software alone. Doing it in a real world system in conjunction with masses of sensors is an order of magnitude more complex. An interesting forensic exercise though.

Your residuals may be depressed as a consequence but I don't think any consequential losses would be recovered in court - they are normally and explicitly excluded from any agreement. You might get a good-will payment with no acceptance of liability. That will probably be enough for most. The most likely result from any action.

I doubt if any individual can prove they have been disadvantaged by the con and it's going to be impossible to prove anyone has been hurt physically. You couldn't isolate the effects of just VW cars.
The only chance of any prosecution would be from the standards organisations if they can show their measurements were defrauded.

If the measures by which UK tax thresholds were impacted HM gov might consider action. Unlikely though. To do so would require tests to be redone on exactly the same models in the same conditions. Difficult to set up.

As to getting Diesels out of line up. It will happen but it's likely to take years. 2020 is ambitious. Tax on large petrol engines is going to be high. Only significant development on battery technology in support of hybrids is going to give you low revving powerful torquey engines. They won't appear in mass production for a while yet.the costs are to high.

Manufacturers have issues on maintaining residuals on current and future diesels. Either that or they buy back diesels in exchange for new cars. If prices plummet then owners simply won't be able to buy new. A fine balancing act. VW may suffer as a brand issue. If that were to spread to all manufacturers they have mega problems.

Get used to small (sub 2L) high revving twin-turbo petrol engines. Having said that the current 2L engines in high performance guise are very good. Still don't have the low end grunt for relaxed town driving though (compared to your average 3L 6 pot or 2L diesel) IMHO. When you lift the skirts it's a different matter. But, to get emissions down they have to be very docile in normal circumstances. You can't have high power engines that pull from low revs and low emissions. That's currently mutually exclusive. Do you want to drive a screaming 1.2L in a 1800kg+ car that needs constant wiggling of the gear stick - not relaxing. Not fun.

The real problem with all carbon based engines is you have to deal with the carbon.
Sometime we will be driving vehicles using fuel cells. You still need a source of hydrogen/oxygen. A big tank of pressurised hydrogen - just too dangerous to give some of the numpties we have on our roads.

If you think we're entering nirvana and that you'll never be conned again then I'll have some of what you're smoking :D

Edit - before anyone says I didn't address the NOx issue I'll accept that. Didn't see the previous post. I have to ask if anyone (until recently) has ever chosen a car based upon NOx emissions? Were you personally misled even if the figures were not true?
Yes Diesels are about 5x that of petrol. Were the test measurements spoofed here? Going to have to prove on the balance of probabilities they were. You might just get that. Are VWs actuals worse than anyone else's - if yes you have a case. On that basis VW might well be quaking.
 
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andyglym

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I've not had a rant for a few days. Here goes.... :whistle: There's nothing on tv anyway.

I don't see any individual being out of pocket directly as a result of the VW con. The software in question was activated in very specific operational circumstances that wouldn't arise in normal circumstances so wouldn't impact consumption. Convincing a court otherwise is a high hurdle to jump. It's possible to decompile the code but proving what it does line by line is not easy. It's hard enough just doing software alone. Doing it in a real world system in conjunction with masses of sensors is an order of magnitude more complex. An interesting forensic exercise though.

Your residuals may be depressed as a consequence but I don't think any consequential losses would be recovered in court - they are normally and explicitly excluded from any agreement. You might get a good-will payment with no acceptance of liability. That will probably be enough for most. The most likely result from any action.

I doubt if any individual can prove they have been disadvantaged by the con and it's going to be impossible to prove anyone has been hurt physically. You couldn't isolate the effects of just VW cars.
The only chance of any prosecution would be from the standards organisations if they can show their measurements were defrauded.

If the measures by which UK tax thresholds were impacted HM gov might consider action. Unlikely though. To do so would require tests to be redone on exactly the same models in the same conditions. Difficult to set up.

As to getting Diesels out of line up. It will happen but it's likely to take years. 2020 is ambitious. Tax on large petrol engines is going to be high. Only significant development on battery technology in support of hybrids is going to give you low revving powerful torquey engines. They won't appear in mass production for a while yet.the costs are to high.

Manufacturers have issues on maintaining residuals on current and future diesels. Either that or they buy back diesels in exchange for new cars. If prices plummet then owners simply won't be able to buy new. A fine balancing act. VW may suffer as a brand issue. If that were to spread to all manufacturers they have mega problems.

Get used to small (sub 2L) high revving twin-turbo petrol engines. Having said that the current 2L engines in high performance guise are very good. Still don't have the low end grunt for relaxed town driving though (compared to your average 3L 6 pot or 2L diesel) IMHO. When you lift the skirts it's a different matter. But, to get emissions down they have to be very docile in normal circumstances. You can't have high power engines that pull from low revs and low emissions. That's currently mutually exclusive. Do you want to drive a screaming 1.2L in a 1800kg+ car that needs constant wiggling of the gear stick - not relaxing. Not fun.

The real problem with all carbon based engines is you have to deal with the carbon.
Sometime we will be driving vehicles using fuel cells. You still need a source of hydrogen/oxygen. A big tank of pressurised hydrogen - just too dangerous to give some of the numpties we have on our roads.

If you think we're entering nirvana and that you'll never be conned again then I'll have some of what you're smoking :D
You need to get Sky TV mate =))
 

Redline

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You need to get Sky TV mate =))
Got it. Easily bored. If I go to the satellite Control room at work I have access to over 1300 tv channels. It's all noise. Much of it being aired for the nth time (today). :whistle:

Footie on now though.
 

andyglym

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Got it. Easily bored. If I go to the satellite Control room at work I have access to over 1300 tv channels. It's all noise. Much of it being aired for the nth time (today). :whistle:

Footie on now though.
Too much choice :wideyed: Yep, Hull just hit the post :mad: C'mon 'ull :cool:
 

mrscalex

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I don't know how to value any compensation. But I am seriously cheesed off I paid £19,000 for a car that was designed to cheat regulations and hence deceive me as well as the Government.

The value of my car has not been affected but that's not the point. Yes, I think I should get something. Am I going to chase round and get in a flap? No. If it happens, it happens.

But I am very unlikely to be buying a VAG car any time soon. Never say never though, on investigation I'm finding new BMWs to be very expensive when they do high miles. And my Alhambra (touch wood) is cheap to run. I had 75k out of the front pads and the rear pads are still going at 85k. I get 60k+ out of a pair of rear tyres. I've see several 3 GTs where disks and pads have been changed by 20k and some where tyres have been changed at 12k. A huge expense when you do 30k miles a year.
 

Redline

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Youre being conned far more by the hugely ambitious fuel consumption figures that all manufacturers claim.
One thing I've learnt in every situation (systems, people, processes, machines etc) is that you always get what you measure. Most measurement systems are failed simply because of the poor or in-balanced or unpoliced measures imposed. It's always people that create innovative ways of improving perceived performance. Human nature.
 

mrscalex

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Youre being conned far more by the hugely ambitious fuel consumption figures that all manufacturers claim.
One thing I've learnt in every situation (systems, people, processes, machines etc) is that you always get what you measure. Most measurement systems are failed simply because of the poor or in-balanced or unpoliced measures imposed. It's always people that create innovative ways of improving perceived performance. Human nature.
My expectation is 20% off any 'official' combined figure for real world. And if I could get compensation for what I agree is a rip-off with that I would. But I can't. So I'm not going to pass by the chance of a few K for something I might be able to get compensation for. £3k buys a distressed Z3 and restores it!
 

Redline

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My expectation is 20% off any 'official' combined figure for real world. And if I could get compensation for what I agree is a rip-off with that I would. But I can't. So I'm not going to pass by the chance of a few K for something I might be able to get compensation for. £3k buys a distressed Z3 and restores it!
On that basis then the CO and HC figures on your V5 are also untrue (they're related directly and inextricably linked to the fuel consumption figures) but you (and the rest of us) accept that you've been misled there. Just saying because that's what any legal defence will likely say. It's a minefield :eek:
 

t-tony

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You may well be right in all you say Ian, again you may just be someone who doesn't own a car who's value is not where it should be. As I said I don't expect any compensation and I'm not joining into any "cause" just saying if owners get some payout I will accept it!
The actions taken by VW have "directly" affected vehicle values in my opinion.

Tony.
 

5harp3y

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What should you get compensation for?

The fact that your cars depreciate like everyone else's?

I fail to belive that anyone gives a toot about this scandal in the second hand market. Because it isn't even a scandal in Europe.

All cars depreciate some much faster than others. Some depreciate in a linear fashion, some tank after a few years when a new model is released.

The two cars in mention on this thread were massed produced consumer goods and will both depreciate like crazy.

If you end up getting something then fairplay to you.

But I honestly can't see how
 

mrscalex

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What VW did was inherently dis-honest and sought to mislead consumers and the Government on the capabilities of the car. Fuel consumption etc as mentioned by redline may not be representative of the real world but they follow guidelines there so no complaints.

VW saved themselves perhaps millions of pounds by applying this cheat. So as well as misleading they sold a product which alleged to have had the required R&D and production spend made on it to create a compliant car when in fact that was not the case. Effectively they obtained part of the sale price of the car fraudulently as far as I'm concerned.

And had I known I was buying a car from an organisation prepared to act in a corrupt manner I would have thought twice. I'm not really happy driving round advertising Seat and suggesting I condone their behaviour.

As a result of the scandal (and some other problems with the car) I am looking to change the car earlier than I expected. As such I'm not getting the full value from the car I expected and this translates to monetary loss.

All of a sudden I've become a spokesman for why claiming is valid and Seat should pay. I'm not. However whilst I don't mind people playing devils advocate about why claiming is not valid, I'd be disappointed to think that people on the forum would actually begrudge owners like myself and @t-tony from making a few quid from a vast organisation like VAG.

In my case it really would just go straight back into saving another Z3 too.
 

Redline

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You may well be right in all you say Ian, again you may just be someone who doesn't own a car who's value is not where it should be. As I said I don't expect any compensation and I'm not joining into any "cause" just saying if owners get some payout I will accept it!
The actions taken by VW have "directly" affected vehicle values in my opinion.

Tony.
All diesels are tarred now I suspect. I have one and am unnerved about replacing it. Not because they are any worse now than they were six months ago but about the lifetime cost including depreciation and residuals as a consequence of the about turn on diesels. It's all over a technicality that has no relationship with real world conditions. Don't get me wrong because wrong is wrong. Proving it and the personal consequences is a different matter. We will all suffer in some way but then the manufacturers will have to act to restore and maintain values. The only thing VW could do is give preferential terms on trade-in. But then you'd have another VW.

VW got caught. As I said I expect all manufacturers are using smoke and mirrors to give the impression their vehicles are better than they are. I bet others really do have ways of deceiving the measures. I suspect there has been some clever version control of the software deployed on the ECUs used in testing. I'd like to see the audit trail of the testing itself. But, that testing hasn't and won't tell us the real world truth. It's all relative at best.

I'm playing devil's advocate. If, in the end, it makes the overall testing process more transparent and realistic we are all better off.
Getting clarity on what the true figures were and acceptance never mind compensation is a big ask. Trust has been breached. Lots of cars are worth less. But you're up against a huge corporation. They clearly have deep pockets though. It's the short arms that's the problem.

I'm sure if I had a VW I too would be miffed. VW have to be accountable. All manufacturers have to be transparent and truthful. Fat chance.
Providing a fix in your car now however has no bearing on tests that were done years ago or on real world emissions. Just stubbing out the offending lines of code changes nothing about how the cars perform. It doesn't restore its lost value. It is brand value arguably that's been lost. VW have to restore it.
I can't see how individuals can easily claim when the standards bodies against which the claims were directed themselves don't take action. VAG group car owners have been let down not once but twice.
 

t-tony

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Very fair comments Ian, I have also mentioned in the past how this "cheat" appears to work, as we test emissions anyway, Mercedes having been using the same thing for far more years but it's never been picked up on in the USA mainly because they sell "gas" powered cars over there.
In reply to Tim's comment, VW's aren't depreciating the same as everyone else's cars, that is the whole point. Will you go out and buy a VW.
Also if VW were to offer a decent trade in against another VW?, yes I would take that but not another diesel car, got my fingers burnt once. Small engined turbo petrol cars maybe better than you imagine, I like the torque of a 3.0 6 cyl. motor but dependant on mileage probably no good for a person doing more miles than me, not my problem really.

Tony.
 

Redline

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:whistle:
Very fair comments Ian, I have also mentioned in the past how this "cheat" appears to work, as we test emissions anyway, Mercedes having been using the same thing for far more years but it's never been picked up on in the USA mainly because they sell "gas" powered cars over there.
In reply to Tim's comment, VW's aren't depreciating the same as everyone else's cars, that is the whole point. Will you go out and buy a VW.
Also if VW were to offer a decent trade in against another VW?, yes I would take that but not another diesel car, got my fingers burnt once. Small engined turbo petrol cars maybe better than you imagine, I like the torque of a 3.0 6 cyl. motor but dependant on mileage probably no good for a person doing more miles than me, not my problem really.

Tony.
I was going say I wonder if owners would be upset if they found the very same cheat also got the car through its MoT emissions test. One mans cheat becomes another mans cost saver.

Maybe I can't give up that torque stuff :whistle:
 

t-tony

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Very true mate, most people don't give flying **** as long as they get that result that allows them to tax and insure their vehicle for another 12 months.
I don't want to give up the torque thing either, but, electric vehicles are way in front of carbon powered ones. I hope to come up to the guy with the i8 in Florida and blag a ride, now I know where his office is!;)

Tony.
 

t-tony

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I just read on an Orlando news page that VW have admitted trying to cheat the emissions rules in the USA and will pay $4.3B.

Tony.
 
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