Yep, we’ll use your car also, be like being acquainted with an old friend....Great, shall we meet up on @Pingu street to try it out
This heel and toe business
- Thread starter Dino D
- Start date
I’m on it!!!
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Points
- 165
I was driving like I would on the road. Do all the braking, then change gear.
but I was probably ...
Hard Brake
Reduced Brake + Clutch Down + Out of Gear into Neutral
Clutch Up + Blip of Throttle
(possibly more braking if necessary) - "oh s***" moments only
Clutch Down + Into Gear
Accelerate as appropriate
Ideally, on the road it would be...
Brake
Reduced Brake
Clutch Down + Out of Gear into Neutral
Clutch Up + Blip of Throttle
Clutch Down + Into Gear
Accelerate as appropriate
Ideally, on the track, I think, it would be...
Hard Brake
Hard Brake + Clutch Down + Out of Gear into Neutral
Hard Brake + Clutch Up + Blip of Throttle
Hard Brake + Clutch Down + Into Gear
Trail Brake + Turn-in + Accelerate as appropriate
Turn-out + Accelerate
4-to-3 doesn't have enough time to get the clutch up, but 5-to-4 and 3-to-2 does.
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My understanding is the double-declutching you describe (i.e. blipping in neutral with clutch up) was only needed for old pre-synchromesh gearboxes and not required for modern ones like in Z3s.
My process:
1. brake
2. clutch in (still braking)
3. change gear and blip throttle as stick passes over neutral (clutch still in, still braking)
4. clutch up (still braking)
5. either come off brake and accelerate away; or repeat steps 2 to 4 if needing to grab another gear
Not needed on my auto, but very neccessary on my old 1926 Austin seven which I had in Bahrain in 1965, also on a lot of old cars with very week or worn Synchro.
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dead easy on a motorbike... can't do it on car no need too... especially on a 1.9!!
clutchless shifts up and down on motorbike too without a quickshifter too...
when i first had my 850cc Twin i kept on locking up the back wheel soon learnt to blip the throttle on down changes... do it even more on my single cylinder 660cc supermoto.. that locks the back up too..
clutchless shifts up and down on motorbike too without a quickshifter too...
when i first had my 850cc Twin i kept on locking up the back wheel soon learnt to blip the throttle on down changes... do it even more on my single cylinder 660cc supermoto.. that locks the back up too..
By using the throttle you can change gears without using the clutch at all. Good fun when you master it, but need to get the revs just so.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Points
- 165
I can't (haven't mastered) #3. If I were block changing, I would definitely double de-clutch, but I can't do it under control of both brakes and throttle.
Re #3 - unless the clutch is dragging, there is no benefit doing the blip in neutral. That blip could be done at any time the clutch is in.
I've worked out the difference in what we are doing and why...
You are trying to increase the engine speed to match the new speed of the gearbox to balance the car.
I am trying to increase the speed of the gearbox input shaft to reduce wear to the baulk rings.
The blip in neutral (clutch up) turns the gearbox input shaft at a speed that is closer to the new speed of the main (& lay) shaft(s). It is doing the same as you are, but with the additional advantage of getting the input shaft in the gearbox turning at engine speed, so only the main (& lay) shaft(s) needs to match the output shaft speed.
It's a habit that I got into in the 80s.. You are correct in that it is not needed. The gearbox will handle "normal" gear changes, but I've replaced baulk rings on gearboxes in the past. I don't want to do it again (especially on a ZF350). If I can make my gearbox last as long as the engine, I'll be a happy bunny (or penguin
). Having a lightened clutch doesn't help, especially as it is a "normal" flywheel, not a DMF.I find it very difficult to drive in an unsympathetic way. I find it very hard to slide the car. If I wheel-spin, it is nearly always because I have lost control. I drive like Miss Daisy before everything is warmed up.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Points
- 165
I've had to do it twice. Both times were clutch lever failures, and both times was in traffic
Yep, got it in one. At least that's my naïve understanding of what I'm doing from a non-engineering layman perspective. Often wondered what the mechanical difference is between blipping with clutch in and blipping in neutral w/clutch out, so thanks for shedding light
Gotta admit, it feel like a crisper and somehow more satisfying shift when double-clutching instead of blipping w/clutch in. I'm assuming that's the difference you talk about with the input shaft. But the desired result is the same for me, in terms of matching engine/gearbox speed and keeping the car balanced, as you point out.
I may start double-clutching more if it's more sympathetic mechanically
Just get an Auto 
All F1 cars use them these days you know ................
Tony.
All F1 cars use them these days you know ................Tony.
Just as a "by the way", is it because you're south of Watford Gap?, but up here we call it " Toe 'n' heel", From the days of Paddy Hopkirk who developed a bolt on adaptor for the Mini throttle pedal to enable this operation?
Tony.
Tony.