The Next Classic BMW? Here's Why Z3 Prices Deserve To Go Up
- Thread starter bombur
- Start date
Pleased to see that people are finally figuring out what we already know, "That he Z3 is a fun car". This sort of advertising will help with spreading the message and pushing up pricing.
I didn't realise that the UK got a 4 cylinder 2.2 engine in the Z3? They are all 6 cylinder M54B22's down here in N.Z.
I didn't realise that the UK got a 4 cylinder 2.2 engine in the Z3? They are all 6 cylinder M54B22's down here in N.Z.
No 4 pot 2.2 here Murray.
Tony.
Tony.
Arh, so they guy in the video has got it wrong.
Yes, he did. They made a 2.0 4 Cyl. Z4 E85
Tony.
Tony.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2016
- Points
- 231
- Model of Z
- Z3M Imola and Z4 (e89)
He knows very little. I mean, was Goldeneye really the best Bond film of the modern era? I don't think so 
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Yes, I struggled to 10 minutes, then turned it off.
The UK staccato accent did my head in.
The UK staccato accent did my head in.
The howler of the 'Four pot 2.2' engine tells us a lot about this 'specialists' knowledge! I also fail to understand the atraction of an exhaust which pops back on the overrun, which is usually a sign of weak mixture or a small exhuast leak. I have never had problems in telling when the hood has fully lowered - as the car must be at rest to lower it, one can always turn one's head - or even check in the mirror . . . He also failed to point out that the four-cylinder 1.8 is actually a 1.9 - which could get you into trouble with your insurer.
He also parrots the usual Autocar rubbish about 'scuttle shake,' and suggesting that new tyres effect a small improvement.
This is in reality caused by BMW having been irresponsible in fitting 17 inch wheels with their basic wishbone bushes - which have more gaps in them than they have rubber! Although the 17 inch tyres look similar to the 16 inch type, their sidewalls are far stiffer, and introduce loads which the standard bushes cannot withstand, so produciing unwanted steering effects. New tyres with more compliant sidewalls will improve matters slightly, but the basic problem will recur under higher cornering loads.
Even MG did not fall for that in the MGF when fitting the optional larger wheels. BMW should have fitted the M Roadster/M3 bushes, which are virtually solid rubber. Polyurethane bushes make a huge difference - see my article regarding modifying Z3 suspension.
Basic BMW Z3 Suspension Modifications
He also parrots the usual Autocar rubbish about 'scuttle shake,' and suggesting that new tyres effect a small improvement.
This is in reality caused by BMW having been irresponsible in fitting 17 inch wheels with their basic wishbone bushes - which have more gaps in them than they have rubber! Although the 17 inch tyres look similar to the 16 inch type, their sidewalls are far stiffer, and introduce loads which the standard bushes cannot withstand, so produciing unwanted steering effects. New tyres with more compliant sidewalls will improve matters slightly, but the basic problem will recur under higher cornering loads.
Even MG did not fall for that in the MGF when fitting the optional larger wheels. BMW should have fitted the M Roadster/M3 bushes, which are virtually solid rubber. Polyurethane bushes make a huge difference - see my article regarding modifying Z3 suspension.
Basic BMW Z3 Suspension Modifications
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I'm pretty sure when he talks about the scuttle shake he's actually talking about the flex in Z3 chassis. If you polyflex those said bushes you're making it worse. Another occasion I’ve whiteness this is launching a Z3M on a drag strip, dash and door nearly touch one side while the gap opens up more the other side, she's a bendy old girl... they all are.
Driving these cars on the limit that’s the only time you really feel it, other occasions might be on some very rough unforgiving British roads.
I really struggled with his video, quite a lot of his detail was wrong or not quite correct more so quoting goldeneye being one of the best films! Jesus wept man!
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'Scuttle shake' means nothing - it is used as a general description of any problem encountered on a bumpy road, such as the sudden movement of the steering wheel on poor surfaces. This is not caused by a flexing body shell, but by the wishbones moving in the rubber bushes.
Poly bushes do not make anything worse - try them and see! My car has no problems in the handling or NVH areas. The 'keep it standard' brigade do not know what they are missing, or perhaps they consider having to wrestle with the steering wheel to be a sign of character!
Poly bushes do not make anything worse - try them and see! My car has no problems in the handling or NVH areas. The 'keep it standard' brigade do not know what they are missing, or perhaps they consider having to wrestle with the steering wheel to be a sign of character!
And do you have any proof of these claims, CFD analysis etc.
I'm assuming these are your opinions.
How can you deduce that the bodyshell is flexing? Does the bonnet move around relative to the base of the windscreen on rough roads? Do the doors rattle and pop open? I think not. The Z3 is a pretty strong car, but like all BMWs the suspension attachment components are the flexible points.
I wonder if you have ever driven a well set up Z3 with seventeen-inch wheels over a bumpy road on poly bushes?
Opinions are ideas which are not backed up by facts - such as those who persuade themselves that a magnet fitted to the fuel supply pipe will work wonders, or those who use a selected amount of science to confirm their prejudices!
My findings are not opinions, but the result of 22 years of Z3 ownership, during which I have had ample time to draw conclusions by experiment and deduction, with driving on some pretty poor road surfaces in the UK and Europe. Believe it or not - fitting poly bushes was akin to having the car exorcised!
Proof - do I need more?
I wonder if you have ever driven a well set up Z3 with seventeen-inch wheels over a bumpy road on poly bushes?
Opinions are ideas which are not backed up by facts - such as those who persuade themselves that a magnet fitted to the fuel supply pipe will work wonders, or those who use a selected amount of science to confirm their prejudices!
My findings are not opinions, but the result of 22 years of Z3 ownership, during which I have had ample time to draw conclusions by experiment and deduction, with driving on some pretty poor road surfaces in the UK and Europe. Believe it or not - fitting poly bushes was akin to having the car exorcised!
Proof - do I need more?
I don't really care to be honest, the Zedshed that I run has nearly built 100 Z3's all from BMW nut n bolt through to fast track cars. I would say that’s a lot of seat time in every form of Z3 weather it be poly bushed or not. So your 22 years of ownership is based on 1 car setup I'll bare that in mind.
Thanks for the definition on what Opinion meant.
I find your view and opinions fascinating.
Snother point to ponder - you state that poly bushes will make matters worse . . . but if you think about it, basic mechanics tell us that a lubricated poly bush at the rear end of the wishbone forms a simple pivot point, which probably absorbs less torque to rotate it than does a rubber bush, which is stressed in shear by its limited amount of rotation. How does that make matters worse?
I'm afraid that whenever I hear or read about Z3 scuttle shake I tend to regard it as an attempt to blind with science - sorry to disagree!
I'm afraid that whenever I hear or read about Z3 scuttle shake I tend to regard it as an attempt to blind with science - sorry to disagree!
I've not actually stated once that they make anything worse, this will all depend on your view of what is bad and whats not. Given your using the lollipop bush as your example here, these actually demostrate a very good use of the poly bush and can elliminate a number of issues but can also introduce another. Have you ever thought BMW designed this bush to allow it to move due to the rough/uneven roads and absorb any impacts like a pot hole so the driver didnt get a nasty jolt through the wheel... Granted poly bushes are very good but used in the right application which again is very subjective.
If you find the science behind scuttle shake confuising mabye take a little time to understand the science you might find it interesting. I'm sure there is plenty of studies on the interwebs. I'm pretty sure theres a few CFD studies.
If you find the science behind scuttle shake confuising mabye take a little time to understand the science you might find it interesting. I'm sure there is plenty of studies on the interwebs. I'm pretty sure theres a few CFD studies.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Points
- 145
Wow didn't realise it was that bad!
Well, you did state that 'If you polyflex those said bushes you're making it worse' As for understanding 'the science behind scuttle shake, well,
I doubt if there is any 'science' in the scuttle shake theory! It is just a catch-all description for unwanted steering effects. I presume that by CFD you mean computational fluid dynamics, which I would regard as a red herring.
I prefer basic engineering principles to any attempt to grace such vague descriptions in a cloak of science - perhaps you find my methods are not exactly cutting edge, but if one change is made, and effects a cure for a long-standing problem, then any attempt to describe it as other than being the answer is difficult to justify.
OK - you are used to driving lots of race-prepared Z3s, whereas my rationale is experience with a particular car over many years - I suggest that this does not make my process any less valid. The behaviour of a certain car on the same roads, at similar driving styles after a single particular modification is probably a more valid test. Perhaps you would like to tell us how a couple of poly bushes can cure the so-called 'scuttle shake' which you claim to be caused by a weak bodyshell in such a car.
I doubt if there is any 'science' in the scuttle shake theory! It is just a catch-all description for unwanted steering effects. I presume that by CFD you mean computational fluid dynamics, which I would regard as a red herring.
I prefer basic engineering principles to any attempt to grace such vague descriptions in a cloak of science - perhaps you find my methods are not exactly cutting edge, but if one change is made, and effects a cure for a long-standing problem, then any attempt to describe it as other than being the answer is difficult to justify.
OK - you are used to driving lots of race-prepared Z3s, whereas my rationale is experience with a particular car over many years - I suggest that this does not make my process any less valid. The behaviour of a certain car on the same roads, at similar driving styles after a single particular modification is probably a more valid test. Perhaps you would like to tell us how a couple of poly bushes can cure the so-called 'scuttle shake' which you claim to be caused by a weak bodyshell in such a car.
I love the pops on lift off overrun, my Supersprint is designed to do just that. Infantile granted but I love it.
Sorry FEA not CFD, that will teach me flicking between two things I'm trying to write, FEA is Finite Element Analysis which In my line of work is essential this covers vibration heat stress those sorts of things.
I'm not really into willy wagging so we'll leave my experience to one side.
Scuttle shake with the Z3 is a very real thing weather you like it or not, I've eaten bread tougher than a Z3 chassis, at the end of the day it's a characteristic of the Z3 and one in which we've all become used to while driving them, personally I've only ever reduced it with body braces and not bushes. Thinking about it simply adding a stiffer bush will only make the car respond harsher when under load due to there not being any give in the bushes.
Think we might of ventured off topic here, blokes video is still entertaining, it's good the Z3 is getting some limelight now.