Investment or just fun?

[Aaron MacQ]

I'm all for the early 2.8's too!

The pre-facelift 2.8 had a unique wide rear end (using the same rear wings as the Z3 M roadsters) but with a cleaner bootlid and the number plate mounted lower to the bumper. Performance is great and a few mod's could have it on par with the 3.0 for far less initial outlay. I think the time will come when the early 2.8 will be seen as the cream of the crop, so this is where I'd look for a safe investment, but any 6 cylinder model maintained to a good standard should hold it's value.

 

[mrscalex]

In fairness to 1.9s, I think very low mileage (sub 50k), unmolested examples of these are also potentially good investments IF bought cheaply.

I’ve met up with a couple of members recently who have bought such cars and I think they stand as good a chance as anyone on a % based return.

These cars tend to fly under the radar. A 6 cylinder low mileage car tends not to.

 

[Robert Wiles]

I agree with the views of most and reckon that's exactly the way to approach buying a Z3. Buy a decent one and have some fun with it.
Who knows how the whims of the old car market will take prices? I never thought I'd see decent MGBs at £15k plus...
Good luck with your search.

 

[kyrix1st]

Any Z3 roadster other than M variant is a bad investment. If anything, coupes will rise due to its unique (somewhat extravagant) design and its reminiscence of the M coupe.

On the other hand, I don’t think Z3s will see terrible drop in price either since it looks timeless, will go up temporarily due to inherent scarcity of the Z and stabilize at ~$10K.

There isn’t much to the vehicle, which also means there isn’t much to break. My 4 banger has been quite trouble free other than small oil leaks and interior door pull handle (Z3 interior plastics are one of the worst)

It’s one of the nimblest BMWs in terms of weight and steering, so I say get it!

 

[Pingu]

In fairness to 1.9s, I think very low mileage (sub 50k), unmolested examples of these are also potentially good investments IF bought cheaply.

I’ve met up with a couple of members recently who have bought such cars and I think they stand as good a chance as anyone on a % based return.

These cars tend to fly under the radar. A 6 cylinder low mileage car tends not to.

Yes, but a % of "not a lot" is "not a lot". Would you regard it as a good investment if you buy now for £2,000 and sell in two years for £2,500?

A £500 return over two years on a £2,000 "investment" is not much of an investment, especially as tax, MOT and insurance will have eaten into the "profit".

It is cheap motoring, not an investment.

 

[mrscalex]

Yes, but a % of "not a lot" is "not a lot". Would you regard it as a good investment if you buy now for £2,000 and sell in two years for £2,500?

A £500 return over two years on a £2,000 "investment" is not much of an investment, especially as tax, MOT and insurance will have eaten into the "profit".

It is cheap motoring, not an investment.

I think there’s some confusion over capital and operational expense.

There’s one expenditure for having possession of a car = capital. And one for running it = operational.

I don’t include operational expense as it has nothing to do with capital appreciation aka return on investment.

So I don’t include tax, MOT and insurance. Neither would I include running repairs or servicing. Those are operational expenses incurred from using the car.

But I would include betterment - like a respray as it’s a capital expense.

And yes you can deliberate some items as being either type of expense. And plenty of people do when it comes to taxation and what they tell HMRC, more commonly in association with property.

So on a capital basis I will happily take 25% appreciation. You might get 3% at best in a building society. Or maybe 6% in a pension.

It’s not a crime to have one eye on your car as an investment. But I agree it’s a mug’s game to believe it’s definitely going to happen and that it will produce a windfall.

 

[Redline]

25% in two years is a good return. It doesn’t however make you rich beyond all dreams. It’s still a speculative adventure and ons whose returns cannot be guaranteed. There are returns to be had on other investments, maybe not as good but probably more guaranteed.

Buying a good example and then returning it to concourse condition will more than double the total capital required but will need hundreds of man hours work. You might just make 50% return then.

Simply relying on the market to rise and hope to make money and do nothing? Try the lottery, or better, premium bonds instead.

 

[mrscalex]

Btw I keep a spreadsheet of all my Z3 finances and it's truly depressing.

I've never made a penny out of breaking cars/selling spares. In fact I am down hundreds but at least not thousands. But I don't consider myself a breaker anyway. I just sell stuff I don't need from my own projects.

My goal is to make sure I conceive projects where I get back my money on capital investment. Otherwise I won't do the project - which is why I've ended up breaking 3 cars along the way.

But that entails rebuilding project cars bought cheaply and which require hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of spares. It hinges on the fact I count my labour at zero value. But the reality is I pour more time in than I could ever get any return on.

Essentially I end up with cars which cost me the same as buying a 'decent' one on the open market. But the reality is there is no such thing as a decent Z3 unless it's been enthusiast rebuilt/refreshed or had enormous sums of money handed over to a good garage by a hands-off owner. But I do end up with a proper 'decent' car.

Do I think I'll ever see a return on my investment? I might do in 5-10 years but then I'm unlikely to sell either of my 2 keepers.

Do I think it's okay for people to have one eye on the car as investment? Yes but I only defend their right to do that rather than the probability it will ever happen. Buy a decent car very cheap to stand the best chance of that. But you'll most likely need to take advantage of an owner who's wrongly priced it or is desperate to sell to do that!

 

[Redline]

Btw I keep a spreadsheet of all my Z3 finances and it's truly depressing.

I've never made a penny out of breaking cars/selling spares. In fact I am down hundreds but at least not thousands. But I don't consider myself a breaker anyway. I just sell stuff I don't need from my own projects.

My goal is to make sure I conceive projects where I get back my money on capital investment. Otherwise I won't do the project - which is why I've ended up breaking 3 cars along the way.

But that entails rebuilding project cars bought cheaply and which require hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of spares. It hinges on the fact I count my labour at zero value. But the reality is I pour more time in than I could ever get any return on.

Essentially I end up with cars which cost me the same as buying a 'decent' one on the open market. But the reality is there is no such thing as a decent Z3 unless it's been enthusiast rebuilt/refreshed or had enormous sums of money handed over to a good garage by a hands-off owner. But I do end up with a proper 'decent' car.

Do I think I'll ever see a return on my investment? I might do in 5-10 years but then I'm unlikely to sell either of my 2 keepers.

Do I think it's okay for people to have one eye on the car as investment? Yes but I only defend their right to do that rather than the probability it will ever happen. Buy a decent car very cheap to stand the best chance of that. But you'll most likely need to take advantage of an owner who's wrongly priced it or is desperate to sell to do that!

Agree that’s the common sense way of doing it. If you have the time to search out slightly unloved examples and spend a few hours giving them a bit of spit and polish you’re more likely to make a couple of hundred on each. But then, you’re trading rather than investing.

Got to treat cars as money pits. You will never be disappointed. You might just get close to breaking even if you’re lucky.

 

[mrscalex]

If you have the time to search out slightly unloved examples and spend a few hours giving them a bit of spit and polish you’re more likely to make a couple of hundred on each

Try 200 hours to make the average Z3 a really good one. Literally. I was comparing notes on this with another forum member only the other day.

But then, you’re trading rather than investing.

Not unless you are buying with the main intention of re-selling without using the car as your own vehicle. Buying a car, making it better, using it and selling it one day with a possible profit is not trading. Most of us on here follow that pattern. And given the sums of money we all chuck at our cars we would be stinking traders if we tried it

 

[Tfp]

Btw I keep a spreadsheet of all my Z3 finances and it's truly depressing.

I do also, mostly because I have too much time on my hands.

It can be depressing, so I work it out as a weekly cost, it doesn't look as bad then.

My last car depreciated £11,870 in a year.

£228 per week

£32 per day

My Z is still worth the same as what I paid for it.

 

[Grumps]

I do also, mostly because I have too much time on my hands.

It can be depressing, so I work it out as a weekly cost, it doesn't look as bad then.

My last car depreciated £11,870 in a year.

£228 per week

£32 per day

My Z is still worth the same as what I paid for it.

Ouch!!!

 

[Tfp]

Ouch!!!

Had I kept it three years as planned it'd have been £115 per week

Or £16 per day.

I've done the sums on many of the newish cars I've bought and mostly it works out a similar price to what a lease deal would have been.

 

[Grumps]

I've always bought at 3 years and let someone else take the hit.
My current car a Ford Focus ecoboost purchased at just 3 years with 10k on it. I paid less than half it's new list price and it drives as well as a new car.

 

[Tfp]

I've always bought at 3 years and let someone else take the hit.
My current car a Ford Focus ecoboost purchased at just 3 years with 10k on it. I paid less than half it's new list price and it drives as well as a new car.

This is the advice I dish out when asked.

Shame I don't follow it myself I guess, but that's the price one pays if you want the latest tech on your drive.

 

[Pingu]

Just to show the real figures on what many would think was a fantastic investment (my M Roadster)...

November 2010: Bought for £6,000
August 2017: Guaranteed insurance value = £16,000

£10,000 "profit" in 7 years (24% APR)

Cost of ownership = £20,500

True "profit" = £10,500 loss. The actual cost of ownership is £3.81 per day + 31.1p/mile.

If I had just stored the car, it would probably still be worth £16,000, but I would have had storage and insurance costs.

 

[TraceyP]

Some great replies thankyou! Just to state - I buy cars because I like them - it's the other half that's obsessed with making money out of them ;-) I am excellent at buying complete sheds, spending a fortune and ending up having to scrap them....like the Nissan Figaro that the turbo blew up on....the Rover Mini that rusted out, and the VW Golf cabriolet that got written off....by a Smart car...!

I wouldn't count any money spent on tax/insurance/general maintenance as in my opinion I'd be spending that out anyway whatever I drove, so if I can buy a Z3 that doesn't explode/rust away and is worth the same as I paid for it a few years later that would be amazing ;-)

 

[Lazzzydog]

That has to be total bullshit. Please explain how you have spent 20 k in 7 years maintaining a car! You must have bought a complete shed and rebuilt it with golden panels.

 

[Pingu]

That has to be total bullshit. Please explain how you have spent 20 k in 7 years maintaining a car! You must have bought a complete shed and rebuilt it with golden panels.

The coding within Excel must smell like rapeseed, or the truth is in the figures.

Expensive cars to buy when new are expensive cars to run when old...

http://www.porterbility.co.uk/Files/XLS/20180615_ZM_Spreadsheet.xlsx

 

[mrscalex]

It's a very inclusive view. You even have tools in there which I account for separately. And a track day! Then fuel too which for me is a personal travel expense if you like, not a direct ownership expense.

But £3k per year sounds very much what I would expect so I certainly wouldn't question the total figures.