Carbon cleaning?

[Redline]

They offered this service at Vanity for £75 on the day. You could actually hear the engine note change as it was starting to breath easier.

Rather sceptical on that Lee. Pumping hydrogen into a confined space with oxygen - what's going to happen?
Of course it's going to make a different sound - your burning gas rather than petrol. A rather combustible gas. You're creating water!

So, in addition to burning the fuel how does it turn carbon deposits back into a gas? Only if the heat is great enough to reignite the carbon I guess. But, the fuelling would be measured against the stoichiometric ratio needed for the throttle position, so, in addition to hydrogen and atmospheric oxygen you're adding more fuel than is needed which probably goes straight to the cat and burns there. Or partially burnt fuel at best producing CO and NOx no doubt. All sound rather implausible.
Snake oil. Unless we have a chemist who tell us what's really happening.

 

[Mac Romans]

Rather sceptical on that Lee. Pumping hydrogen into a confined space with oxygen - what's going to happen?
Of course it's going to make a different sound - your burning gas rather than petrol. A rather combustible gas. You're creating water!

So, in addition to burning the fuel how does it turn carbon deposits back into a gas? Only if the heat is great enough to reignite the carbon I guess. But, the fuelling would be measured against the stoichiometric ratio needed for the throttle position, so, in addition to hydrogen and atmospheric oxygen you're adding more fuel than is needed which probably goes straight to the cat and burns there. Or partially burnt fuel at best producing CO and NOx no doubt. All sound rather implausible.
Snake oil. Unless we have a chemist who tell us what's really happening.

All sounds very scientific....and I don't understand any of it I'm afraid.

 

[Redline]

All sounds very scientific....and I don't understand any of it I'm afraid.

Me neither.
But, hydrogen burns with oxygen to form water. How then does it detach carbon deposits?

 

[t-tony]

Me neither.
But, hydrogen burns with oxygen to form water. How then does it detach carbon deposits?

Maybe by the same effect that they got in the old days by simply spraying water in to the inlet. Does it simply just "steam clean" the internals of the engine?

Tony.

 

[oldcarman]

I think that's about right @t-tony. As I said in my previous post we'd pour water into the carb and that chunks of carbon would spit out the exhaust. Sometimes it would be black smoke but whatever voodoo went on it cleaned the cylinders. Could try it with a water injector into the airway just before the throttle body but not sure what it would do to the computer. I have a poor man's system that sprays methanol into my carb on the engine that's in my 57 Chevy presently that definetly increases the HP but by how much I''m not sure. It cools down the air charge which in turn changes the F-A ratio packing more mixed fuel into the cylinders. JIM

 

[hard top]

How about Methane (CH4)?
I fart a lot, so if I stuck a hose up my ass and......

 

[oldcarman]

How do you think I get my methanol @HT!! I have friends who collect it in bottles and I convert it from a gaseous state to liquid. They're all stored safely though because if there was ever a fire it would take out all three towns around my place!! JIM

 

[Lee]

Rather sceptical on that Lee. Pumping hydrogen into a confined space with oxygen - what's going to happen?
Of course it's going to make a different sound - your burning gas rather than petrol. A rather combustible gas. You're creating water!

So, in addition to burning the fuel how does it turn carbon deposits back into a gas? Only if the heat is great enough to reignite the carbon I guess. But, the fuelling would be measured against the stoichiometric ratio needed for the throttle position, so, in addition to hydrogen and atmospheric oxygen you're adding more fuel than is needed which probably goes straight to the cat and burns there. Or partially burnt fuel at best producing CO and NOx no doubt. All sound rather implausible.
Snake oil. Unless we have a chemist who tell us what's really happening.

There is a lot of science behind it and I'm by no means easily fooled. The end results are %100 noticeable but for how long is questionable.

This is taken from their site:

How does Hydrogen and Oxygen remove carbon deposits?
The process is technically know as a pyrolysis – Hydrogen, along with increased oxygen levels, raises the combustion temperature within the engine making it possible for a chemical reaction that burns off and disintegrate the carbon deposits. Now what’s left of the carbon is in a gas form and airbourne it exits safely through the exhaust in generally a clear non pollutant smoke.

Hydrogen
Hydrogen is the raw fuel that most stars ‘burn’ to produce energy. With 90% of the visible universe being composed of Hydrogen it is the most abundantly available element. On Earth it is can be found in water, oil and natural gas. The process stars use to burn Hydrogen is called ‘Fusion’ this same process is now being researched as a power source for use on Earth.

If Hydrogen is an energy source is it the Hydrogen CarbonCleaning machine safe? Yes of course, it a produce made in Europe and carries full CE safety certification.

 

[oldcarman]

@Lee, I believe their statement of Hydrogen being 90% of our visible universe is incorrect. Nitrogen and Oxygen compromise 99% of our atmosphere with Hydrogen being somewhere around .00005% give or take and most of that is in the combined source of H2O. Argon is also a much higher percentage and combined with all other gases bring it to 100%. JMHO. JIM

 

[Lee]

@oldcarman have you visited other parts of our universe?

P.S I have no affiliation with this company, only tried out their product.

 

[Mac Romans]

Ok, using the power of secondary school chemistry I'm gonna have a crack at a theory....

If the hydrogen is used as a "fuel" to generate heat each hydrogen molecule could bond with 2 oxygen molecules to form H2O (water).

But if there's enough oxygen left over and it's in a super heated environment with the carbon, could the carbon molecules bond with 2 oxygen molecules to form CO2 (carbon dioxide gas) which can then pass through the exhaust as a gas....maybe. I need a scientist to explain it to me I think.

 

[oldcarman]

@oldcarman have you visited other parts of our universe?

P.S I have no affiliation with this company, only tried out their product.

With the drugs i''m on I just may have @Lee. I wasn't questioning your knowledge of the product but rather theirs so sorry if that was the impression you got. We need a scientist to explain their rationale as @Mac Romans says because none of us, that I know of, are experts on this particular product. JIM

 

[Redline]

This has been bugging me all day.
Let's look at the facts claimed.

Hydrogen is plentiful. The seas and oceans are full of it. Free hydrogen is less than 1% of free gas in the atmosphere.

Hydrogen (and Helium) comprise just 4% of stuff in the universe.

Yes - Hydrogen is used in fusion.

Not sure any of these facts explains how this process works. Nice facts but completely irrelevant.

Hydrogen gas is as far as I can tell, injected along with the normal petrol. However, only the same amount of oxygen is drawn into the engine on the air charge. That hydrogen is fighting the normal fuel charge that is injected and already measured for the 21% of oxygen in atmospheric air. I expect the free hydrogen gas will combust more readily than the fuel, so, some of that fuel will be pushed out the exhaust either partially or completely unburnt. This is in addition to the hydrogen combustion products - water probably as superheated steam and NOx from the hydrogen burn.

Also, carbon is not a gas or vapour. In pure form it will at best be microscopic drops of carbon (soot). To be a vapour or gas it needs to be combined with oxygen or hydrogen. Just heat will not cause that recombination of carbon with oxygen/hydrogen.

Now - I don't dispute the view that the process changes something and improves performance. It's not at all clear what's going on.

I would expect the tick over speed to increase during the process. More fuel available but no more oxygen. The hydrogen is likely to burn preferentially and with greater energy.
Only the exhaust port and the exhaust will be in contact with any gasses.

Now, it's a very long time since I took the head off a car, but, the volume most restricted by deposits is just the valve area itself. But, those deposits are still likely to be a small percentage of the available space.
I suspect that while that is cleared, much of the claimed carbon recovery is from the rest of the exhaust system. A layer of carbon on that isn't going to reduce the cross section of the exhaust by more than a fraction of a percent.
So, what's going on.

Well - Here's a few more facts.
The hydrogen will burn at up to 2,100 deg C. (Even higher in enriched oxygen).
Petrol in engines burn at around 750 deg C. Max. Those gasses cool quickly (although at high revs and load, the volume of gasses will cause the exhaust manifold to glow red - about 700 degC).

You,ve potentially increased the cylinder temperature by up to three times! I'm guessing that it is just that much higher temperature that is simply just burning off the carbon deposits and ejecting them as micro-fine soot carried in the exhaust gasses.
But, what exactly is that much higher temperature doing to your piston rings, cylinder head, Cat, valves and oil?
If that is what's going, could you be doing much greater damage just to clear a few microns of soot from your engine?
If that is really what's happening I would be a somewhat cautious about using it.
I'm sure this will run and run. We might even get some real facts rather than guesswork.

 

[Lee]

That's a huge assumption to jump too. Why don't you save yourself the headache and call them ?

 

[Redline]

That's a huge assumption to jump too. Why don't you save yourself the headache and call them ?

No need Lee. After looking at how the chemistry works, then, I agree - It works just like they themselves claim and can see it can easily remove carbon based deposits simply by burning them off. I don't think I'll be using it, but not saying anyone else shouldn't though. Take a view on the risks v benefits and decide.

 

[Mac Romans]

Just to throw a curve ball in....what's "terraclean" and how does that work?

 

[Lee]

Just to throw a curve ball in....what's "terraclean" and how does that work?

Put your wooden spoon away

 

[Redline]

Just to throw a curve ball in....what's "terraclean" and how does that work?

I would guess it involves old nappies in a boiler

 

[Lee]

Just to throw a curve ball in....what's "terraclean" and how does that work?

It's actually quite similar but attachs to the fuel system bypassing the fuel tank. %50 fuel %50 detergent. Removes all the carbon build up. Just like the carbon clean it's really effective in the beginning but in time back to where you started. It did actually cause an issue on my dads Jag, the carbon was keeping the injectors running because they were very warn.

 

[andyglym]

This has been bugging me all day.
Let's look at the facts claimed.

Hydrogen is plentiful. The seas and oceans are full of it. Free hydrogen is less than 1% of free gas in the atmosphere.

Hydrogen (and Helium) comprise just 4% of stuff in the universe.

Yes - Hydrogen is used in fusion.

Not sure any of these facts explains how this process works. Nice facts but completely irrelevant.

Hydrogen gas is as far as I can tell, injected along with the normal petrol. However, only the same amount of oxygen is drawn into the engine on the air charge. That hydrogen is fighting the normal fuel charge that is injected and already measured for the 21% of oxygen in atmospheric air. I expect the free hydrogen gas will combust more readily than the fuel, so, some of that fuel will be pushed out the exhaust either partially or completely unburnt. This is in addition to the hydrogen combustion products - water probably as superheated steam and NOx from the hydrogen burn.

Also, carbon is not a gas or vapour. In pure form it will at best be microscopic drops of carbon (soot). To be a vapour or gas it needs to be combined with oxygen or hydrogen. Just heat will not cause that recombination of carbon with oxygen/hydrogen.

Now - I don't dispute the view that the process changes something and improves performance. It's not at all clear what's going on.

I would expect the tick over speed to increase during the process. More fuel available but no more oxygen. The hydrogen is likely to burn preferentially and with greater energy.
Only the exhaust port and the exhaust will be in contact with any gasses.

Now, it's a very long time since I took the head off a car, but, the volume most restricted by deposits is just the valve area itself. But, those deposits are still likely to be a small percentage of the available space.
I suspect that while that is cleared, much of the claimed carbon recovery is from the rest of the exhaust system. A layer of carbon on that isn't going to reduce the cross section of the exhaust by more than a fraction of a percent.
So, what's going on.

Well - Here's a few more facts.
The hydrogen will burn at up to 2,100 deg C. (Even higher in enriched oxygen).
Petrol in engines burn at around 750 deg C. Max. Those gasses cool quickly (although at high revs and load, the volume of gasses will cause the exhaust manifold to glow red - about 700 degC).

You,ve potentially increased the cylinder temperature by up to three times! I'm guessing that it is just that much higher temperature that is simply just burning off the carbon deposits and ejecting them as micro-fine soot carried in the exhaust gasses.
But, what exactly is that much higher temperature doing to your piston rings, cylinder head, Cat, valves and oil?
If that is what's going, could you be doing much greater damage just to clear a few microns of soot from your engine?
If that is really what's happening I would be a somewhat cautious about using it.
I'm sure this will run and run. We might even get some real facts rather than guesswork.

I was just this very minute thinking along those very lines