"Avoiding" PayPal fees discussion - Posted by @GazHyde and not @ktnez99
- Thread starter ktnez99
- Start date
Sadly not the only consideration but it's what Paypal like you to believe. You still need to pay from debit card, bank account or Paypal balance to avoid the seller getting fees. If you use a credit card with Friends & Family the seller gets fees. For every 3 transactions I do on Paypal, despite trying to explain all this I end up paying fees.
I don't read every for sale ad on here, just the ones that are reported and this just got flagged. Not so much the initial advert, but the subsequent "discussion" which has got my attention.
Using Friends and Family is in contravention of PayPal's terms and conditions. No one should be encouraging anyone to break the T&C's of any service publicly on this forum.
Further for sale posts which encourage this will be deleted. I don't want to start vetting every for sale post on here, or get in to a discussion over what constitutes a "commercial transaction" as PayPal make it pretty clear in the above quote from their T&Cs. I shall update the forum for sale rules imminently to enforce this.
Using Friends and Family is in contravention of PayPal's terms and conditions. No one should be encouraging anyone to break the T&C's of any service publicly on this forum.
Further for sale posts which encourage this will be deleted. I don't want to start vetting every for sale post on here, or get in to a discussion over what constitutes a "commercial transaction" as PayPal make it pretty clear in the above quote from their T&Cs. I shall update the forum for sale rules imminently to enforce this.
@GazHyde I didn’t ask people to pay using Friends & Family in either my first or subsequent post. I said PayPal ensuring no fees. Please don’t post messages like that on my For Sale post suggesting I’ve done something wrong. Please remove your post and @ktnez99 ’s and let me get on with the business of selling my tonneau cover. I suggest you put your message in a new thread rather than happening to choose any one individual to attach this to.
I’m not ultimately clear what constitutes a commercial transaction. But let me remind people of this - I am not a trader. I do not break Z3s. I do not make money out of Z3s.
Btw. Whoever reported this thread. Have you really got nothing better to do?
I’m not ultimately clear what constitutes a commercial transaction. But let me remind people of this - I am not a trader. I do not break Z3s. I do not make money out of Z3s.
Btw. Whoever reported this thread. Have you really got nothing better to do?
Let's be clear about the 2 types of Paypal payment and why they are there:
The fee associated with Goods & Services is to fund buyer protection. It's not a 'trader'/commercial transaction fee.
So the ultimate purpose of new forum rule 10 in my view becomes the forum involving itself in encouraging buyer protection which conflicts specifically with "Any purchases are made at the buyers own risk, and it is the sole responsibility of the party offering items for sale that they are of merchantable quality and fairly described." In which case cash & bank transfer transactions would also need to be excluded by forum rules. All forum transactions must then be done by Paypal Goods & Services, Credit Card or other buyer protection schemes.
For the record I dislike Paypal with a passion but I never ask anyone to specifically pay using Friends and Family. Only that I'm recompensed for the fees. I am not a business, I do not trade parts - I sell parts not required for my own projects. Any dispute with parts I sell is sorted out to the full satisfaction of the buyer on the basis of a friendly enthusiast to enthusiast engagement and does not need an external scheme. So I don't see why I should pick up the tab for an unnecessary fee or why the buyer should. I'll take cash or bank transfer every time normally. But I have no wish to handle cash currently.
- Friends & Family - no buyer protection
- Goods & Services - buyer protection.
The fee associated with Goods & Services is to fund buyer protection. It's not a 'trader'/commercial transaction fee.
So the ultimate purpose of new forum rule 10 in my view becomes the forum involving itself in encouraging buyer protection which conflicts specifically with "Any purchases are made at the buyers own risk, and it is the sole responsibility of the party offering items for sale that they are of merchantable quality and fairly described." In which case cash & bank transfer transactions would also need to be excluded by forum rules. All forum transactions must then be done by Paypal Goods & Services, Credit Card or other buyer protection schemes.
For the record I dislike Paypal with a passion but I never ask anyone to specifically pay using Friends and Family. Only that I'm recompensed for the fees. I am not a business, I do not trade parts - I sell parts not required for my own projects. Any dispute with parts I sell is sorted out to the full satisfaction of the buyer on the basis of a friendly enthusiast to enthusiast engagement and does not need an external scheme. So I don't see why I should pick up the tab for an unnecessary fee or why the buyer should. I'll take cash or bank transfer every time normally. But I have no wish to handle cash currently.
I am surprised anyone uses Paypay for simple transactions. To be using Paypal (to the best of my knowledge)you need a bank account.
Therefore just do a simple Bank Transfer ,very quick and reliable. Most companies now add Bank Details on accounts ,
Window cleaner puts note in door to say he has been--then just transfer payment that evening.
Why do people use Paypal ??????
Therefore just do a simple Bank Transfer ,very quick and reliable. Most companies now add Bank Details on accounts ,
Window cleaner puts note in door to say he has been--then just transfer payment that evening.
Why do people use Paypal ??????
No it doesn't.
Well, someone clearly has time on their hands to flag my comment.
I do consider a number of my fellow Z owners as my friends and hence, my post. It was not intended to offend which clearly, someone has been offended and whoever you are, have a nice day
I do consider a number of my fellow Z owners as my friends and hence, my post. It was not intended to offend which clearly, someone has been offended and whoever you are, have a nice day
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I said in my view @GazHyde and I’m allowed to have a view especially when my For Sale listing got trashed.
You are in my view missing the point about the purpose of fees and the options available to people. I’d rather no one used PayPal. But I’ll defend the right of them to use it and select what payment option they want within PayPal rules. It’s my belief it’s factually incorrect to suggest this circumvents PayPal fees. Even your thread title makes this suggestion and putting it in quotes isn’t a mitigation. It’s about buyer protection. Please show me where PayPal refer to fee circumvention in their rules. In which case I’ll shut the heck up and crawl back under my rock. I’ve just skim read the whole user agreement and I can’t see it.
If you are a business, trading laws prevent you from removing buyer’s rights by asking for Payment by Friends & Family. If you have a business account you can’t use Friends & Family at all.
I have a personal account and I would imagine most people on the forum do. The user agreement permits personal account holders to request payments by Friends & Family. You are allowed a personal account if your primary activity is not selling things. I just checked my activity record for Oct 18 to Jan 20. 23 payments made to me. 466 payments made by me to others.
Despite apparent perceptions I sell very little. Just take a look and see how few For Sale listings I actually put up. Have a look at my eBay account - mrscalex and my Gumtree account. I sell very little. I spend way too much.
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- Dec 5, 2011
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I would imagine that as a public/open forum the people running this site would not want to appear to condone or publicise any action that avoids paying a multinational company their fee for a service they are providing.
Which paying for a product on a for sale thread would, in my opinion be classed as one which warrants a transaction fee.
Which paying for a product on a for sale thread would, in my opinion be classed as one which warrants a transaction fee.
How about if people want to use PayPal the price is 5% more to reflect fees and protection, then they pay with goods and services.
Otherwise a 5% discount is given for bank transfer or cash.
Simples just add the fees into the original price along with offering a discount.
I am nervous of the F&F payment as I, and my son, have both been stung on another z forum where the goods never appeared and that was over £100's worth.
Never had an issue using it on here though, but then i wouldn't use it with a new member that I have never seen at a show.
Otherwise a 5% discount is given for bank transfer or cash.
Simples just add the fees into the original price along with offering a discount.
I am nervous of the F&F payment as I, and my son, have both been stung on another z forum where the goods never appeared and that was over £100's worth.
Never had an issue using it on here though, but then i wouldn't use it with a new member that I have never seen at a show.
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I think Gaz Hyde was very clever in his wording. Everyone can be happy if you read what he wrote, especially as all transactions finally take place privately and not in public
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Can you show me where in the PayPal user agreement that fee contravention is referenced? Or that a legitimate personal account holder can’t use Friends & Family? The term Friends and Family only appears 3 times in the whole document and the main reference is in the context of legitimate personal account holders being free to send or request in that manner. The term fee appears nearly 200 times with no relationship to Friends & Family and no suggestion of any contravention possible.
This is about buyer protection for business account holders. Clearly if someone is running a business then they should have a business account and take part in formalised buyer protection. PayPal define a business account requirement as selling more than buying. And PayPal do police that activity and force a change to business if required.
The conversation around avoiding fees should probably stop as it’s causing unfortunate suggestions to be made.
If the forum moderator wants to tag people 3rd party trader and banish reference to Friends & Family that’s his business but it doesn’t mean I agree. It’s going too far making suggestions of fee avoidance.
Your point is not lost on me. But the interpretation of the PayPal user agreement is I believe not right. And making suggestion of fee avoidance is plain wrong.I think Gaz Hyde was very clever in his wording. Everyone can be happy if you read what he wrote, especially as all transactions finally take place privately and not in public
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To be honest Robert I’ve neither the time or inclination to read all of the terms and conditions, I comment purely on my interpretation of this part of their website where you choose to pay (or not) PayPal for the service they are providing you with.
I disagree that there is no suggestion of people trying to avoid fees, this thread is entirely about exactly that, whether others are prepared to say it or not.
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Just one point. We are all guests on this forum and the forum has rules put in place by the owner. We dont have to like the rules or indeed agree with them we do all however have to abide by them or exercise our right to leave the forum. The owner of this forum also has the right to exclude anyone of us for not abiding by those rules. Enough said I think.....move on. 
My one and only comment on this point. We all have the option of using PM . Private message. Use that, and whatever happens stays off the open forum and is between you and your conscience.
Tony.
Tony.
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Just one point. We are all guests on this forum and the forum has rules put in place by the owner. We dont have to like the rules or indeed agree with them we do all however have to abide by them or exercise our right to leave the forum. The owner of this forum also has the right to exclude anyone of us for not abiding by those rules. Enough said I think.....move on.
Not relevant Niall. This is a thread posted by Gaz Hyde where he encourages us to discuss alleged fee avoidance. If you or anyone else don’t want to discuss it fine. But lets not go off topic as you have done.
The problem I have is that Gaz Hyde chose to use my For Sale post to launch this. It’s the only reason I can still be ar*ed to discuss it. Unfortunately this put the spotlight on me for something I had neither done nor would have broken the PayPal user agreement for if I had.
So someone show me here where it links personal account holders with not being able to use friends and family if they are selling something and if they do it constitutes fee avoidance. There is no concept of fee avoidance on PayPal. Only the issue of abuse by business sellers attempting to divert buyers away from their rights. You’re not a business seller on PayPal if you have a personal account. PayPal monitor your activity and will act if they think it’s being abused.
So let’s stick to the thread title. Please discuss alleged fee avoidance and your interpretation of the PayPal user agreement. Not someone else’s.
Personal accounts
With a personal account you can send and request money from friends and family and pay online for purchases.
Holders of certain existing personal accounts may be required to upgrade their accounts (which may include providing further information to PayPal) in order to be able to use all of the current functionality available in a personal account.
To use your PayPal account primarily to sell things, you must open a business account or convert your personal account to a business account.
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Grow up Rob. Throwing stones does you no favours.