Z3 M44 where's the water going?????

[Barry Gadd]

Having replaced the duff fuel pump,taken out the seats,dried out the soggy foam rubber carpet backings,replaced the engine,renovated the hood etc etc.... finally got the engine going.Whoopee
Now find the water level in the header tank slowly going down to the bottom (or close to the bottom).
I can't see where the water is coming out.
The rad hose connections are dry,I can't see anything dripping out anywhere but it has rained a fair bit recently.
The oil level is not changing nor is it looking milky.
I wonder:-
1) If the heater matrix is leaking would water seep out behind dashboard and under the carpet such that you can't see any evidence of water loss?
2) Could water get into the cylinder and out the exhaust without contaminating the oil??

I will gently clamp the 2 heater hoses to eliminate this possibility.

Anybody seen this problem before???

 

[jonco]

..............Anybody seen this problem before???

Yep - It may not actually be water loss - if you have not got the system prime right it could just be gradual air displacement. Are the hoses rock hard when the engine is hot - sign of air in system.

 

[Barry Gadd]

Hi Jonco,
Thanks for getting back.
I have run the engine hot a few times having topped up the header tank. I've also bled air from the screw alongside the radiator filler cap and noticed water trickling from this overflow pipe into the header tank when the engine is running.When I had the radiator out earlier I blocked the lower hose connection,filled the radiator with water and left it for a longish time to check for leaks but found none (clearly the rad was not under any pressure during this check)
I did notice the plastic pipe connection at the bulkhead end of the cylinder head, had part of the smaller diameter pipe broken off but it was still possible to jubilee clip the hose firmly on the remaining part and I can't see any leaks from here.
I've looked all round for obvious leaks and found none. I find even with the engine not running if I top up the water the level slowly decreases down and try as I may I can't find where it's going.....I've topped up the header tank many times.
When it stops raining I'll clamp the heater matrix hoses to check this possibility.
You mention system prime. How should I do this properly??

 

[Cooper]

I remember reading somewhere that you should ensure that the heater in the car should be turned to max heat to ensure the solenoid is open and fill the water pipes in there. Have you done that? I hope this helps in ensure the system is totally full and primed.

 

[jonco]

Hi @Barry Gadd - you seem to be doing everything right. I commented on prime because I had similar symptoms which were my own fault because I overlooked the heater valve.
The hoses on my mine were so inflated I thought I had a cylinder head leak. I took it to my friendly Indy and we did a head leak (bubbler) test on it which fortunately was Ok.
I dropped part of the system and refilled with heater correctly set and basically squeezed the hoses while I was doing it and it was ok after that. Other areas to check are the O ring joint at the bottom of the expansion tank and the actual drain valve - best seen with lower cover off.

 

[EnthuZiaZT]

I did have a similar problem in another car, Turned out to be the head gasket had blown between a gallery and a cylinder. There was a lot of steam from the exhaust, but it was on a very cold day. You may not notice steam in higher temperatures.

Mike

 

[FRANKIE]

Sometimes an unexplained water loss is due to a bad bearing in the water pump where water can leak out the shaft of the water pump when the car is running. You never see a leak when you're stopped because the water pump shaft is not turning. If your water level is changing while the engine is off, then this is not the cause.

 

[Barry Gadd]

Many thanks for the above replies.
I checked yesterday and while the engine is running the water level in the header tank keeps at the same level with the filler cap removed. Water is pumped slowly from the radiator into the header tank via the small diameter outlet just inside the filler cap neck.The engine runs quite well on tickover without the filler cap.When I switch the engine off I can see the water level in the header tank very slowly going down.
The exhaust is very wet with water slowly dripping from the tail pipe and I wonder if it is possible for a headgasket leak with water getting out via the exhaust without contaminating the oil (the oil level isn't changing nor does it show any milky white evidence of water ingress).Also there is no evidence of oil in the coolant water.
This is really puzzling as I bought the car with all the symptoms of headgasket failure ie the oil was a milky white emulsion. I removed the head and the gasket was fine but the head itself had corroded between a water hole and one cylinder. Rather than replace or reskim the head I managed to buy a complete M44 engine and put this in the Z3. I've replaced my fuel pump and she starts without problems. I can't drive the car anywhere as there's no MOT or tax.
I wonder:-
Is it possible for an internal water leak to get out via the exhaust with engine oil or water contamination?
On the lower half of the inlet manifold there is a circular black plastic unit bolted to a water heating system. The black unit has a pipe going to the cylinder head. I can't work out what this unit is but could water leak to the head via this unit?
Sorry for all the questions but all I want to do is get my car running properly through the MOT and out on to the road.......

 

[Barry Gadd]

Humblest apologies. I should have typed Is it possible for an internal water leak to get out via the exhaust WITHOUT engine oil or water contamination?

 

[FRANKIE]

Many thanks for the above replies.
I checked yesterday and while the engine is running the water level in the header tank keeps at the same level with the filler cap removed. Water is pumped slowly from the radiator into the header tank via the small diameter outlet just inside the filler cap neck.The engine runs quite well on tickover without the filler cap.When I switch the engine off I can see the water level in the header tank very slowly going down.
The exhaust is very wet with water slowly dripping from the tail pipe and I wonder if it is possible for a headgasket leak with water getting out via the exhaust without contaminating the oil (the oil level isn't changing nor does it show any milky white evidence of water ingress).Also there is no evidence of oil in the coolant water.
This is really puzzling as I bought the car with all the symptoms of headgasket failure ie the oil was a milky white emulsion. I removed the head and the gasket was fine but the head itself had corroded between a water hole and one cylinder. Rather than replace or reskim the head I managed to buy a complete M44 engine and put this in the Z3. I've replaced my fuel pump and she starts without problems. I can't drive the car anywhere as there's no MOT or tax.
I wonder:-
Is it possible for an internal water leak to get out via the exhaust with engine oil or water contamination?
On the lower half of the inlet manifold there is a circular black plastic unit bolted to a water heating system. The black unit has a pipe going to the cylinder head. I can't work out what this unit is but could water leak to the head via this unit?
Sorry for all the questions but all I want to do is get my car running properly through the MOT and out on to the road.......

I am at work now on break but I'll think about this. Back to the card tables..Frankie from Caesar's

 

[t-tony]

Unless you can run the car at a fast idle speed for long enough it will be very difficult to "dry out " the exhaust system. When my car has been off the road for a long time and only started to move in or out of the garage it gets so much condensation in it you wouldn't believe and running it leaves a puddle on the ground. Do have to keep topping up the coolant level?

 

[FRANKIE]

Taking a compression test will tell if the problem is in the engine.

 

[hard top]

This is just something that I have read, don't know if its of any help?
Be a nice easy fix if it was.

The most common cause of fluid loss is a faulty radiator cap.

Why?
If you have a faulty cap it cannot sustain the pressure of the system and allows extra fluid to be transferred to the reservoir bottle. Under driving conditions the cooling effect of the radiator may be sufficient to counteract the reduction in pressure caused by a minor fault in the cap. However, once the car is stationary the radiator may not provide enough cooling to prevent the coolant level from getting so high in the reservoir bottle that some coolant is vented off from the reservoir cap. In a hot engine with the stock fan running any released coolant will fall onto the under tray and will quickly evaporate. When the ignition is switched off, no further forced cooling is possible with the stock fan. With a faulty radiator cap and the vehicle park on level ground or facing up hill, any vented coolant will not be visible as it will fall on to and be absorbed into the tray.

With a mildly faulty cap this venting of coolant will continue at each period of use until the cap is replaced. If the cap is not replaced the coolant the in reservoir will fall to a level that is below the mouth of the return feed to the radiator and air will be dawn into the system. However if the reservoir is checked when the vehicle is warm the level of coolant visible may look normal as it takes quite some time for the system to cool sufficiently to draw coolant back from the reservoir. Left unchecked the system will continue to vent fluid when ever the pressure in the system becomes higher than the faulty cap can sustain. Visual checks of a hot may lead the owner to mistakenly believe all is well.

 

[Barry Gadd]

Hi Guys,
Again,thanks for the responses.
The radiator cap doesn't make any difference as the water level in the header tank slowly drops after turning the engine off whether it is in place or not.(thanks Mike)

I will check the compression per cylinder (not done it yet) (thanks Frankie)

t-tony thanks for the info about a wet exhaust. My car was neglected for many months before I got it and replaced the engine. It's a bit off-putting to see water dripping out even after the engine has warmed up but if my situation is the same as yours then that's another worry put to rest.

I'll get there in the end.......

 

[jonco]

A bubbler check will give better info than compression test IMHO. I know it's more expense but if you don't have access to a friendly garage this may be of interest http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Block-tes...original-combustion-leak-tester-/181059430832

 

[EnthuZiaZT]

My engine ran perfectly, even though the head gasket was leaking. Because the leak was not big, only a small amount of water entered the cylinder, and was turned to steam by the explosion cycle. What was evident was the steam from the exhaust (Cold day) and the radiator needing topping up more regularly. If I had left it, it would have got worse, and may even have damaged the head which was Aluminium.

Mike

 

[oldcarman]

Hi, water dripping from your exhaust is not necessarily a problem. In Canada, with our low temps the symptoms you describe usually lead to a cracked engine block. What does this mean in comparison to your symptoms?? When the engine warms the crack opens and allows minute amounts of coolant from the jackets to enter the cylinder(s). Not noticeably in exhaust as with a head gasket with it's plumes of white smoke. Did you pull the head, you may have the same problem with the head as the other engine? Leave your cap alone for a while. You keep dropping pressure build up needed for the recycle tank to do it's job. The reason for the drop in your tank when the cap is off is just natural contraction as heat is disposed of. If your car is not overheating you should find a way to drive it to see what symptoms show. Shouldn't normally take long for something to show up or not. HTH JIM

 

[FRANKIE]

A bubbler check will give better info than compression test IMHO. I know it's more expense but if you don't have access to a friendly garage this may be of interest http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Block-tes...original-combustion-leak-tester-/181059430832

Very interesting. New to me!

 

[oldcarman]

My friend in BC has what he calls his sniffer. It just is held in the reservoir and can tell if the head gasket has a leak. Don't know the actual name but it is truly amazing. It's something like a Geiger counter and originally was used in mining to sniff out gases. Didn't actually believe it until I took a Volvo in for a pre purchase inspection. Within 30 sec. The sniffer went from 0-30 beeps and we pulled the oil stick and sure enough antifreeze in the oil. JIM

 

[t-tony]

My friend in BC has what he calls his sniffer. It just is held in the reservoir and can tell if the head gasket has a leak. Don't know the actual name but it is truly amazing. It's something like a Geiger counter and originally was used in mining to sniff out gases. Didn't actually believe it until I took a Volvo in for a pre purchase inspection. Within 30 sec. The sniffer went from 0-30 beeps and we pulled the oil stick and sure enough antifreeze in the oil. JIM

I have used these over the years for, 37 of 'em. They detect the co2 ( combustion gasses ) in the steam in the cooling system by turning the colour of the test liquid a different colour. Can't use canaries any more.