What is the correct installation angle of a lollipop?

[mrscalex]

I have a sneaky suspicion this may be something a lot of us do not do by the book.

I usually put them on with the lollipop parallel with the wishbone and then let it find it's own place when bolted up.

But this is not necessarily correct. For instance on the rear drop links they need to be installed at 76 deg to the ARB. And anything used to slip the bush on should be allowed to dry/evaporate to 'fix' the position before installation.

So what is the correct way to install the lollipop? The 2 wishbones I took off were different. One appeared to be original BMW and clearly shows the lollipop at an angle. That's this one.

The other was a replacement and was parallel with the wishbone.

The majority of How-Tos gloss over this. But I have seen a couple where the suggestion is if you don't get this correct it affects handling. Then they don't explain what correct is...

 

[5harp3y]

I've got polybushes so it becomes irrelevant

 

[Cooper]

Mine has a location lip so they cannot be installed incorrectly, they snugged in just nicely. If you put them on backwards they could be bolted on properly. Isn't your the same?

 

[mrscalex]

Mine has a location lip so they cannot be installed incorrectly, they snugged in just nicely. If you put them on backwards they could be bolted on properly. Isn't your the same?

You’ve completely lost me!

 

[mrscalex]

I've got polybushes so it becomes irrelevant

So polybushes are a loose fit on the control arm spindle? And the control arm spindle is free to move within the bush after installation?

 

[5harp3y]

So polybushes are a loose fit on the control arm spindle? And the control arm spindle is free to move within the bush after installation?

Yes, the powerflex bush is in two parts so moves freely.

 

[mrscalex]

Yes, the powerflex bush is in two parts so moves freely.

View attachment 83010

Must admit I don’t get that if the whole thing isn’t held together tightly and is free to move around the spindle. It sounds counter-intuitive to the job a bush does.

I’ll put it down to magic. I like magic

 

[Cooper]

You’ve completely lost me!

Hang on,....... do you mean the bushing orientation WITHIN the lolipop? The lolipop installs one way properly only. When I bought mine I got full replacements and they came already assembled. Was only like 3$ more expensive that way!

 

[mrscalex]

Hang on,....... do you mean the bushing orientation WITHIN the lolipop? The lolipop installs one way properly only. When I bought mine I got full replacements and they came already assembled. Was only like 3$ more expensive that way!

It’s regardless of how you got to a complete lollipop. It’s the angle the complete lollipop is installed at relative to the control arm.

Have a look in the photo and you’ll see it’s at approx 45 deg to the control arm. The other one came off parallel to the control arm (not pictured).

So the question is what angle? Or is it completely unimportant? I suspect it is material but something mostly glossed over.

The detail on the rear drop link comes from a BMW bulletin as these slipped off on the early cars. So they went into a lot of detail to explain correct replacement. Eg at precisely 76 deg to roll bar.

So I strongly suspect it’s relevant on the lollipops too. And I’ve seen some articles which say as much without saying what the angle is!

 

[Cooper]

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It’s regardless of how you got to a complete lollipop. It’s the angle the complete lollipop is installed at relative to the control arm.

Have a look in the photo and you’ll see it’s at approx 45 deg to the control arm. The other one came off parallel to the control arm (not pictured).

So the question is what angle? Or is it completely unimportant? I suspect it is material but something mostly glossed over.

The detail on the rear drop link comes from a BMW bulletin as these slipped off on the early cars. So they went into a lot of detail to explain correct replacement. Eg at precisely 76 deg to roll bar.

So I strongly suspect it’s relevant on the lollipops too. And I’ve seen some articles which say as much without saying what the angle is!

Oh, I must be stupid lol. I assumed that once the lolipop is installed on the control arm and secured to the car it will always be at the correct angle just because of the forces involved. It will move to the correct position as the lolipop cannot move once secured to the frame. The end of the control arm is secured in the one and only one position. I assumed that when you removed the control arm the lolipop was pulled into a different angle due to the removal process only. Sorry, I just don't get it and will leave it as that.

 

[5harp3y]

Must admit I don’t get that if the whole thing isn’t held together tightly and is free to move around the spindle. It sounds counter-intuitive to the job a bush does.

I’ll put it down to magic. I like magic

i think that the standard bushes do other a bit of spring tension which helps with NVH

but ultimately their job is to allow the wishbone to articulate with the suspension so having them free moving doesn't hinder them

i love them on mine, front end feels very good (plus they are easier to fit)

 

[the Nefyn cat]

The polybushes allow the wishbone to pivot without the slopping about that you get with void bushes, much prefer the polybushes, feel much nicer on the front end. And they're much easier to fit, done both in the past.

 

[the Nefyn cat]

The polybushes allow the wishbone to pivot without the slopping about that you get with void bushes, much prefer the polybushes, feel much nicer on the front end. And they're much easier to fit, done both in the past.

 

[mrscalex]

Otto solves the mystery and says it is important. 5:58 on this video.

It should be installed parallel with the end of the wishbone arm where it joins the steering knuckle.

Looking at my original photo I posted it appears to be parallel with the underside of the ball-joint which I guess is the same thing. That being the case that photo shows the correct position.

 

[mrscalex]

I'll verify when I fit the parts that this picture correctly explains things. I'm not near the parts at the moment to check and the photo is hiding the other side of the arm.

 

[Lee]

It wouldn't matter too much anyway, only thing it might do is make it difficult to get the bolts in. Once the cars weight is down the bush it will sit where it wants to sit.

 

[Cooper]

Interesting that he says we don't want the bushing to move on the arm but the poly bushings actually allow for movement. I now understand what was meant at the start of the thread, the bushing is set firm on the spindle at some angle and then is supplying tension when twisted up into the secured position. Interesting

 

[mrscalex]

Interesting that he says we don't want the bushing to move on the arm but the poly bushings actually allow for movement. I now understand what was meant at the start of the thread, the bushing is set firm on the spindle at some angle and then is supplying tension when twisted up into the secured position. Interesting

Well that's how I understand the video and what I'm trying to establish for sure.

What I'm not sure about is as @Lee says whether the thing would find it's own position regardless rendering Otto's view irrelevant. Otto/Bav Auto's view is certainly one I would normally respect.

If any lubricant used is allowed to dry then the bush might just stay where it is. The rear drop links I've just put on certainly don't move once finally positioned. The advice from BMW (on the rear drop links) is to let the bush 'set' for 30 mins after installation and before use.

I'll see how the installation goes sticking to the Otto method and try and put an alignment mark on the wishbone/lollipop to see if it finds its own position. Or if it stays put and therefore there is a pre-tension.

 

[Lee]

Well that's how I understand the video and what I'm trying to establish for sure.

What I'm not sure about is as @Lee says whether the thing would find it's own position regardless rendering Otto's view irrelevant. Otto/Bav Auto's view is certainly one I would normally respect.

If any lubricant used is allowed to dry then the bush might just stay where it is. The rear drop links I've just put on certainly don't move once finally positioned. The advice from BMW (on the rear drop links) is to let the bush 'set' for 30 mins after installation and before use.

I'll see how the installation goes sticking to the Otto method and try and put an alignment mark on the wishbone/lollipop to see if it finds its own position. Or if it stays put and therefore there is a pre-tension.

Not saying his view (what ever that is, not watched his video) is irrelevant you will have to put some lubricant on the wishbone to get the Bush on then once on the car it will have to be relatively close or you won’t get the bolts in then once the weight of the car is back on its wheels it will find it’s centre. If you can fit one of those bushes wrong you shouldn’t be working on cars.

 

[Antm72]

I also suppose that as zeds are standard and lowered etc fitting them a set way to the arm would not suit all cars. My car does not sit with its arms a set/stock wayas its low if fitted and fixed the bush would be under massive strain. Mine to are poly and let the car sit at the angle it requires.