uprated brakes?

[Dado]

Hello all, Brain picking time again, my 2.2 Z3 has 56000 miles on it, the front brakes have EBC green stuff pads fitted (a bit more than a year ago) so only 1500 ish miles with them, the brake fluid was changed a little while after.
Braking is fine normally but occasionally when 'making progress' they fade quite noticeably, this is after several very hard braking instances, a couple of times causing enough concern that I was actually going to stop (the smell of burning brakes really strong).
After running at a slower speed for a mile or so, all is back to normal.
My thinking is to put some larger discs with maybe 4 pot calipers on, so am wondering if anyone here has done this and if so what was used.
Have considered not driving at this pace, but hey when the opportunity arises can't help myself, it's part of the reason I bought a Z3 (dry road, roof down, adrenalin up) instead of a Nissan Micra.
Milton Keynes roundabouts add to the need for braking more than usual on a spirited drive too.
Looking behind the wheel there seems to be room to fit a slightly larger disc and caliper in there but have no idea what might fit, maybe someone has used an alternative make of disc (tarox, EBC or other) that has worked with an alternative pad to green stuff.
Did consider the next grade up of pad but wonder if the cold/low speed braking would be affected and compromise 'going to the shops' braking.
Just looking for ideas really, I know it makes me appear to be another irresponsible nutter on the road but I really do have some skill driving and riding in all sorts of situations.
Cheers Dave

 

[MarkLG1973]

Take a look here:

https://zroadster.org/threads/brake-upgrade-dilemma.25078/

There’s a couple of options available from 3 series of a similar age.
4 pots will likely need the master cylinder changing due to the significant difference in piston area.

 

[t-tony]

Another good option is to replace the rubber brake hoses with stainless steel ones.

Tony.

 

[Brian H]

+ 1 for Tony’s suggestion and whilst your at it I’d look to put a higher temp fluid in the car and change the pad compound, the EBC green stuff pads are quite soft, moving up the scale they have red, yellow and blue (I think) the BMW claw brakes also are really very good but just need a bit of tweaking. I also love performance friction pads, really well priced and a superb pad.
HTH

 

[NZ00Z3]

Here is some information I've collected over the years on this topic. There are some more recent threads out there with more information, you just have to search.

 

[Nodzed]

All Z3 brakes should cope reasonably well with even spirited driving.

Before you start spending money on upgrades and new parts check your brakes are working correctly or you will just have the same issue post replacing parts, check you don't have slightly sticky front calipers that's causing the brakes to run at a higher than normal temp (they don't have to be sticking much to cause a problem) and your rears are working correctly and not overloading the fronts. Rears not working properly will seriously affect the fronts ability to slow the car down.

If its never been done a full overhaul of all calipers, reseal and new pistons, is well worth doing and is fairly cheap and easy DIY job. The results can be extremely surprising.

@Dado If you find an issue and want to arrange a visit to the Zedshed West (Lydney, not a million miles from you) and get the parts I will be happy to do the work FOC.

 

[jaguartvr]

I use the EBC green stuff pads as the pad of choice because they produce less dust and have no metal particles in them. This keeps my wire wheels clean and rust free. Mine are 2.8's but I do have a 2.2 and have no problems with the brakes or pads and mine take quite a hammering.

 

[Delk]

If you are driving around Milton Keynes enough to have issues with brake fad the blue lights should not be far behind. Sounds like you may more issues then just brake size.

There are quite a few options for upgrades starting with the simple large discs and calipers off of bigger bmws to full disc and caliper sets.

 

[Chrisr1949]

Totally agree with @Nodzed, I definitely think that you should still treat it as a fault otherwise most of us would be experiencing similar issues. Slightly sticking pistons were my first thought too or needing bleeding. Personally I've never been tempted to uprate a manufacturer's spec unless there's been an increase in BHP. Good luck with tracking it down.

 

[MarkLG1973]

Just on with refurb’ing the brakes on mine. Even though the pads are fairly fresh and the fluid was changed not so long ago, they were definitely overdue.
As others have said, it’d be worth making sure you’re existing setup is 100% - pistons, seals, sliding pins, etc etc, before throwing money at bigger discs, etc

 

[Mike Fishwick]

I have been using EBC Redstuff pads for years, and find them OK at all speeds. They will not make your brakes any better, but will withstand higher temperatures, and do not emit any dust. Incidentally, the latest Greenstuff pads produce a lot of dust.

Changing the discs will not make any real difference - except perhaps in your head! If you have to change them, drilled or grooved discs have an advantage in that they will make the brakes slightly sharper after a long run in the rain, as the film of water which accumulates on the disc will be displaced quickly. I am using Grimechia drilled discs from German & Swedish.

I wonder if your brake fluid change was done by simply sucking out and refilling the reservoir - as practised by some BMW dealers - rather than bleeding through each caliper? I alternate between using normal ATE Dot 4 and their green fluid, which allows me to see when the old fluid has been purged from each line.

With brake fade your first action should be to bleed the brakes, to make sure that there is no air, dirt, or moisture in the system. As this would gather at the bottom of the caliper cylinders, it is best - every few years - to remove and invert the caliper before bleeding.

Rather than fit multi-piston calipers, a cheaper improvement would be to increase the disc diameter to 300 mm as per the larger-engined E46 models, which requires new caliper brackets to move them further out, but will work with the existing calipers. As the 330i etc uses the same caliper mounted at a greater radius, you could retain your Greenstuff pads.

Perhaps you may try to keep to a sensible (legal) speed around the MK ring road! There is more to fast driving that blasting and braking . . . perhaps you would enjoy a trip through the French and Italian alps, taking in the Stelvio pass etc!

 

[137699]

EBC brakes are totally overrated and overpriced for what they are.
If you want to eliminate fade, then stick with basic OEM style disks and fit Ferodo DS2500 pads. You will NEVER experience fade again - and you will notice a huge increase in braking performance when they're hot (whilst being the same as OEM when cold)

 

[the Nefyn cat]

I know I'm a bit late here, but fade is normally down to old brake fluid.

Unless you're driving like a total teenager, of course.

 

[Lee]

Hello all, Brain picking time again, my 2.2 Z3 has 56000 miles on it, the front brakes have EBC green stuff pads fitted (a bit more than a year ago) so only 1500 ish miles with them, the brake fluid was changed a little while after.
Braking is fine normally but occasionally when 'making progress' they fade quite noticeably, this is after several very hard braking instances, a couple of times causing enough concern that I was actually going to stop (the smell of burning brakes really strong).
After running at a slower speed for a mile or so, all is back to normal.
My thinking is to put some larger discs with maybe 4 pot calipers on, so am wondering if anyone here has done this and if so what was used.
Have considered not driving at this pace, but hey when the opportunity arises can't help myself, it's part of the reason I bought a Z3 (dry road, roof down, adrenalin up) instead of a Nissan Micra.
Milton Keynes roundabouts add to the need for braking more than usual on a spirited drive too.
Looking behind the wheel there seems to be room to fit a slightly larger disc and caliper in there but have no idea what might fit, maybe someone has used an alternative make of disc (tarox, EBC or other) that has worked with an alternative pad to green stuff.
Did consider the next grade up of pad but wonder if the cold/low speed braking would be affected and compromise 'going to the shops' braking.
Just looking for ideas really, I know it makes me appear to be another irresponsible nutter on the road but I really do have some skill driving and riding in all sorts of situations.
Cheers Dave

Over the years I've been down all the avenues with the Z3 platform trying to achieve good braking and ended up with 4 pots. The 4 pots were only needed for the track driving.

Sounds like your on the right track as mostly covered above, maybe change to a slightly stronger EBC pad like Yellows/Blue/red. Obviously your biggest issue is heat, get some higher temp fluid and flush all the lines, move up to the 300mm discs from the E46 325 its a bolt on swap. Then the biggest noticeable change was air ducts I moved to the M bumper which has brake ducts and fitted a small tube to blow on the back of the discs.

It's impressive your fading your discs the public road you must be doing some high speed stamps between all those roundabouts

 

[Dado]

Thank you all for replies, has given me food for thought, and yes at 20 years old maybe a complete strip down and refurb of existing calipers is the first job when the weather improves, as I said most of the time the brakes are fine, if you have never driven around MK on a daily basis it is difficult to understand the complexity of the layout, not forgetting that most of the dual carriageways are 70 mph speed limits and a lot of the locals are clueless about lane use anyway, lost count of the number of times been all the way round a roundabout when supposed to be going straight on due to the car in lane 1 turning right!!!
As for the blue lights, the brakes might be suspect but the mirrors work okay......
Will consider the red stuff pads or the ferodo too, sounds like they may be an improvement.

All Z3 brakes should cope reasonably well with even spirited driving.

Before you start spending money on upgrades and new parts check your brakes are working correctly or you will just have the same issue post replacing parts, check you don't have slightly sticky front calipers that's causing the brakes to run at a higher than normal temp (they don't have to be sticking much to cause a problem) and your rears are working correctly and not overloading the fronts. Rears not working properly will seriously affect the fronts ability to slow the car down.

If its never been done a full overhaul of all calipers, reseal and new pistons, is well worth doing and is fairly cheap and easy DIY job. The results can be extremely surprising.

@Dado If you find an issue and want to arrange a visit to the Zedshed West (Lydney, not a million miles from you) and get the parts I will be happy to do the work FOC.

Thanks for the offer, have done refurbs on calipers before so have no qualms about doing these, would like to clean them up and paint them as part of the work too.

 

[MisterP007]

Never tried a pad change on the Z platform (only had mine 1-year). I can however vouch for Ferrod DS2500 pads & DOT 5 fluid bled regularly, which I always ran on my 2001 Saab 95 HOT Aero with great results. For those who do not know the car - heavy Swedish barge which goes like a ballistic missile and takes a lot of stopping due to the weight and inertia built up by the speed. This car ran like new with 600000 miles on the clock - yes 600k!

If you are suffering fade:

Bleed the brakes, Ferrodo DS2500 pads, change to DOT 5 fluid, restore the original calipers, fit drilled/grooved discs when you next need a change, change hoses to stainless steel, fit cooling ducts and pipes to get cool air to the discs.

Results are dramatic on a 20+ year old car