New clutch time

[black fingernail]

On the way to Zedfest from the hotel, the Broomstick started howling from the release bearing. So, I'm now getting the parts together ready for an enjoyable weekend rolling around on the floor. The noise has not got any worse, so I recon I have a little time to track down everything required.
I have already enlisted the help from a much younger and fitter mechanic mate to assist, (do everything heavy).
There are no clonking noises from the DMF, (I'll examine it carefully when it is exposed!) and the pedal height is fine, so I'm being optimistic, there is 140 odd K miles on it so I would imagine it has had a new clutch before we got it.
So apart from the obvious disc, cover and release bearing, (I'll get a LUK kit). I thought it would be a good time to change, spigot bearing, Guibo joint, centre propshaft bearing, clutch fork ball pin, (I might turn one up in bronze), release bearing fork, (or, if it is not too bad, maybe weld it up and re-grind it?), gearbox rubber mountings, (maybe polyurethane).
I already have a braided hose to delete the delay valve.
Have I missed anything ????

 

[Stevo7682]

Oil change for box
Gear selector pins while box out.
@Lee Has a couple of write ups on doing it .
Clutch may well be original.
DMF is the big decision on my last skoda superb original clutch started slipping at around 175k so changed it DMF looked OK so left in .
Just under 225k DMF failed ( deterioration was rapid car not really drivable after about a week if initial noise) so box back out again.
So basically what I'm saying is you need to weigh up cist of flywheel against having to strip it all again if it doesn't like the new grippy clutch.
Stephen.

 

[black fingernail]

I changed the oil not long ago, good shout on the pins though.
A DMF looks to be @ £350 ish so I'll delay purchase until I see the one on board.
It has also crossed my mind considering a solid flywheel conversion, we fit these to the transits at work, they have a really hard life with the knuckle draggers and mouth breathers that drive them. also, I fit one on my old X type, to howls of derision on the jag forum, but I thought it was better than original, a bit lighter.
Anyone have any experience of these?

 

[the Nefyn cat]

Once upon a time (not that long ago, really) all flywheels were solid, and people seemed to be able to drive like that.

 

[black fingernail]

Once upon a time (not that long ago, really) all flywheels were solid, and people seemed to be able to drive like that.

Well, I don't really get the whole DMF idea, they cushion the gearbox in the same way sprung centre plates do, I suppose the mass will dampen the cushion effect if you just 'drop the clutch' instead of gently raising the pedal, but does anyone really notice it? Any 'high performance' clutch mods do away with the DMF first thing, and in racing conditions, the clutch is definitely dropped!
The other thing is reliability, you often hear about DMFs failing, but how often does the centre of a sprung disc fail, (not counting SWMBO's Lancia, caused by regularly 'getting air' over a hump back bridge on her way to work!).
I suppose it must be a hardly perceptible comfort thing. Not that I have decided on converting it yet...
I hope someone with the knowledge can enlighten me.

 

[the Nefyn cat]

Not strictly relevant, but back in my army days I drove a few Centurions, nearly 50 tons and a Meteor engine (27 litre V12) and they got by alright with a one-piece flywheel. It just may be that the DMFs are there to make up for incompetent drivers. Just a thought.

 

[Jim B]

I went for the solid flywheel when my DMF went a few years ago and can't say I noticed any difference although I only drove it for a few hundred miles afterwards until this year when got the car back on the road.

 

[motco]

Well, I don't really get the whole DMF idea, they cushion the gearbox in the same way sprung centre plates do, I suppose the mass will dampen the cushion effect if you just 'drop the clutch' instead of gently raising the pedal, but does anyone really notice it? Any 'high performance' clutch mods do away with the DMF first thing, and in racing conditions, the clutch is definitely dropped!
The other thing is reliability, you often hear about DMFs failing, but how often does the centre of a sprung disc fail, (not counting SWMBO's Lancia, caused by regularly 'getting air' over a hump back bridge on her way to work!).
I suppose it must be a hardly perceptible comfort thing. Not that I have decided on converting it yet...
I hope someone with the knowledge can enlighten me.

I had a Triumph Herald which broke the driven plate so that the gearbox input splines were loose in an annular free floating friction plate. Result: a grinding noise and loss of drive. AA man diagnosed hydraulic failure so I never joined the AA again. To put this into context, I have driven more than a million miles and never worn a clutch out but apart from that failure I had a carbon thrust bearing fall apart once.

 

[Delk]

I have had a dual mass flywheel fail and its not nice at all. Didn't hurt anything but the noise was horrible.

They have a life cycle period and it had nothing to do with your driving style. Some last longer then others.

If I had choice replace it. If cost is an issue go with a solid flywheel.

 

[mrscalex]

The 2.0 & 2.2 have Gertrag gearboxes which are not associated with the detent pin issue. The 2.8, 3.0 & M have ZF gearboxes which are the ones with the detent pin issue.

I was reluctant to fork out for a new DMF when I planned my 2.2 clutch change. It wasn't troublesome. But with the gearbox off it was apparent the damping effect was worn out. On a 1 Series the DMFs are particularly troublesome, resulting in severe vibration and potential to break up. It would be a false economy there not to always do DMF and clutch together. My brother has the issue right now on his E87. £1,500 for a BMW DMF for that! No doubt just a LUK which bought under their own name is more like £400.

 

[Andyboy]

The flywheel should be fine - the giveaway is driveline shunt on/off the throttle. 1 Series flywheels fail because they're a four cylinder diesel but even petrol ones are often knackered by 100k. But they're crap and by that time the engine and diff are worn out as well.

If you want to go the solid flywheel route, an E36 320i flywheel and clutch is the way to go. You'll get a good used flywheel for peanuts and they always felt nicer to use anyway. The part number is 11221726833 and was also used on the E34 520i. The 2.2i and 3.0i have the clutch delay valve that restricts fluid flow - this is to soften the clutch bite. If you go for a solid flywheel, this can come out and be given a distance test.

 

[Dakar Z3]

DMF's were originally introduced to cope with the high torque of modern day diesel engines, helping to absorb vibration I can't remember who was the OE for the Z, however it will be either LUK or more likely Sachs. Either of these units would suffice, it may also be possible you could purchase an LUK and find a Sachs clutch in the box, or vice versa, they do intertrade.
Solid fly wheels were introduced originally by Valeo (Ford Transit) as a price fighting alternative against LUK and Sachs DMF, Valeo are also an OE manufacturer of clutch and if the solid version was not up to expectation they would have immediately withdrawn from sale so as not to damage their clutch reputation, I've never heard of anyone complaining of a solid flywheel. I worked for ZF gmbh for 15 years (Sachs).
I suppose it depends how original you want to keep your Z and obviously the cost saving differential.

 

[Andyboy]

The first BMW to have a DMF was the 1986 E32 7 Series with the 3.0 and 3.5 petrol M30. The one in mine is still ok after 315,000 miles.
Solid flywheels on diesels aren’t always a great idea. Crank breakage on the TDCi Fords isn’t unknown and a mate has converted his 2007 TDI Golf back to a DMF because the solid flywheel was so bad. I think it was a Valeo one.

 

[black fingernail]

The howling has now got intolerable, also a crunching noise has started when the clutch is depressed.
The Broomstick is now officially grounded, I really have to get a wiggle on and get the car on the ramps and get on with it, SWMBO has commandeered my Saab, and I'm having to go everywhere on my old Royal Enfield Bullet, we don't like getting unnecessarily moist!
I have got a LUK three-piece clutch kit, a new Guibo joint and a couple of bearings, a 6002rs for the spigot, and a 6006rs for the propshaft centre mount.
I have turned up a drift to sliding fit the centre of the 6002 to 'hydraulic' out the old bearing, also, using a picture on ebay as a guide, I have turned a bronze pivot pin for the release lever, (hope it is near enough).
The clutch itself is not really the problem, no slippage or juddering etc. the problem seems to be the release bearing and/or the diaphragm. So, I have held off getting a new DMF until I have examined the one fitted, if it is duff, it will be replaced, fingers crossed.
I'm now just arranging some time my friend is available to do the lifting!! more to follow....

 

[t-tony]

You could well discover that the release arm is knackered too.

Tony.

 

[black fingernail]

You could well discover that the release arm is knackered too

Yes, it has crossed my mind, I'll examine it carefully and either replace or repair, she doesn't 'ride' the clutch at all, I don't know about the previous owner, so hopefully it's ok.
She has told me in no uncertain terms that she wants to keep the car forever, so I am trying to 'future proof' as much as possible, if I can reinforce anything better than standard, I will.

 

[black fingernail]

This weekend the clutch has been changed. Saturday, between showers, I got the car lifted as high as I could and removed all the layers, exhaust, (luckily, I had sorted the corroded manifold studs previously), heat shields, propshaft, and finally, the gearbox.
Considering the car has done 140k, the components were in surprisingly good nick, I don't think anyone has been inside before, it had a BMW clutch and had dabs of paint on the Guibo bolts. The clutch was not very badly worn at all, neither was the DMF, the operating arm is fine, but the release bearing was in bits, the balls had grenaded out and the plastic badly distorted. The plastic pivot pin had very little wear.
I removed everything to be replaced and cleared all this lot up, drank some cider and had a radox bath, ready for Sunday.
Sunday, heavy rain until 10.30, so I replaced the Guibo, the old one was cracked and manky, I was going to change the centre bearing, but it seems in good condition, so left that alone. I made up a centreing tool using a 1/4 drive extension with a 10mm socket, built up with tape and a suitably sized socket, again fixed in position with tape, by which time my young mate arrived to assist, (all the lifting!!).
He agreed with me that the DMF was ok, so we cracked on, the spigot bearing hydraulic-ed out nicely, and was changed, the pivot pin, removed and replaced with a bronze one, (gunmetal, actually), and fit the clutch, He then hefted the gearbox on his own, and it slid into place! everything else was just a reversal and put back surprisingly quickly.
The braided clutch pipe was not fitted, as I can't find it, it's in the shed somewhere safe!
Most importantly, SWMBO is happy, the broomstick is airworthy, and I have got my Saab back, sans fuel though!!

 

[motco]

As someone above said, a DMF on a four cylinder diesel will absorb to rotational vibrations which could be quite destructive. On a petrol engine the vibrations are far less severe and on a six-cylinder, virtually absent so I really cannot see what significant benefit is gained from the DMF. However, while you're down there...

 

[black fingernail]

As someone above said, a DMF on a four cylinder diesel will absorb to rotational vibrations which could be quite destructive. On a petrol engine the vibrations are far less severe and on a six-cylinder, virtually absent so I really cannot see what significant benefit is gained from the DMF. However, while you're down there...

I really agree, but, while I was in there, I was really surprised how good condition all the clutch components were, including the DMF. In fact, my mate, John, also a mechanic, was convinced a clutch and DMF had been fitted not long before SWMBO got it, at a main dealer, as a BMW marked disc was fitted, with the 'tread' pattern still well visible. The pressure plate was also in very good condition, apart from the fingers that were damaged by the collapsed release bearing. The DMF, clutch surface looks perfect, sprung nicely both ways, with just over 4 teeth play, with very little 'wobble', so that went back in. I really wish I had taken some pics, but both of us had left our phones behind.
The only 'evidence' I can offer that the clutch is original is, - the disc had BMW on it, there were blobs of white paint on the Guibo nuts, everything had that 'too evenly tight' feel, that is hard to explain, and there is no paperwork in the history folder.

A day on, SWMBO has not stopped smiling, last night, I was treated to an Indian takeaway, today, I'm just about so sit down to a mixed grill, she must have missed it... And before anyone jumps in with 'riding the clutch', etc... She doesn't, she drives properly, clutch in or out, minimal slipping, but she does think she is on a track most of the time, rear tyres last a year!

 

[t-tony]

Glad you got it done John and it minimal cost too. Happy days mate.

Tony.